[go]$$Bcm41 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . O X X . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . O X . O O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X . . O . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . c . . O X X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O X . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . O . X O . O O . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X 2 , X 1 . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O X a 3 X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . b . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
As TJ suggested a tenuki and I'm betting Red will suggest one in the top left, I'll suggest a local followup. First, let's squeeze the base tighter, then we can maybe jump. With this jump, if we can prevent an eye at 'a', we can threaten something like 'b'. I have no clue if it would work, but it seems likely to be sente. Also, if this doesn't work locally., I think nothing does. If Topazg thinks we can't kill the corner, I think he should ignore this and take a tenuki. I know I should read out all followups, but I'm having a hard time doing it. I do have to wonder about something like 'c'. The thickness seems pretty impressive...
I don't think we can prevent an eye at 'a' with the jump:
$$Bcm1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . O X X . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . O X . O O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X . . O . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O X . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . O . X O . O O . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . 6 5 X O , X X . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O X . X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O 3 1 7 . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 2 W . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$Bcm1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . O X X . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . O X . O O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X . . O . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O X . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . O . X O . O O . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . 6 5 X O , X X . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O X . X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O 3 1 7 . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 2 W . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
e: I believe that if we want to have a chance of killing the corner we would have to start with either P2 or P3 instead of P4
My reading was that P2 and P3 don't work. If I'm not mistaken, that may mean that the corner can't currently be killed. If worst comes to worst though, this is sente, which we could then use to seal this 5-10 point group in, or tenuki completely.
Re: Teamovitch #1
Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 5:46 pm
by Aphelion
I''m late catching up with this game, so I'm going to bring up a move 20 moves ago:
We really had to get out, and 'b', although not ideal, was the best move that they gave me.
Re: Teamovitch #1
Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 10:16 pm
by Redundant
Same move, top left. C16 may end in gote, but our big wall along with what we build there outweighs what black gains on the top.
Re: Teamovitch #1
Posted: Fri Mar 04, 2011 1:49 am
by tj86430
WIC:
Chew Terr wrote:
My reading was that P2 and P3 don't work. If I'm not mistaken, that may mean that the corner can't currently be killed.
That may well be the case. I did some reading earlier, and found that the battle will be complicated, but I didn't find a successful defense for black. Such may well exist, because I'm bad at reading and I only did a quick reading excercise.
Re: Teamovitch #1
Posted: Fri Mar 04, 2011 2:39 am
by topazg
$$Bcm41 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . O X X . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . O X . O O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X . . O . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O X . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . O . X O . O O . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X 2 , X B . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O X . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$Bcm41 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . O X X . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . O X . O O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X . . O . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O X . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . O . X O . O O . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X 2 , X B . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O X . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
@Team:
This one's sente, and it's the only reason I'm picking it. I'll explain more after the next options are presented.
@Obs:
I've decided not to give anything away here. The whole purpose of the push and cut and working ladder is it has changed our thickness to work in two directions at once simultaneously. This means our joseki choice in the top left must be one that helps the left _and_ the top, so I don't feel I can pick red's choice. TJ's move is a good general idea with respect to area of the board, but it's a move that doesn't do enough of anything. Black gets to play the first move in the top left. The ladder doesn't work if Black decides to remove it, and the top stone could simply just become a lonesome target (or, go from a "I'm a border post on a moyo of awesomeness" move to a "Woo, I'm probably alive with a two point jump base on the third line" move), so I don't want to play it even though it's clearly eyeing the right part of the board.
Chew's move is sente, so I get another set of options, and it's not _too_ badly aji keshi. I hope they get the hint that I don't like either of their moves :S
EDIT: I gave Black their stone back
Re: Teamovitch #1
Posted: Fri Mar 04, 2011 2:56 am
by Jordus
Topaz!! You sneaky ninja you! Making our last move disappear like that
Re: Teamovitch #1
Posted: Fri Mar 04, 2011 3:15 am
by topazg
Jordus wrote:Topaz!! You sneaky ninja you! Making our last move disappear like that
* Sneaky ninja gets spotted. Sneaky ninja apologises and returns the stone politely *
Haha, missed that completely, copy and paste error from a team-mates post, I promise
Re: Teamovitch #1
Posted: Fri Mar 04, 2011 3:50 am
by tj86430
WIC:
This one's sente, and it's the only reason I'm picking it. I'll explain more after the next options are presented.
Is this a subtle way of saying "your suggestions were all crap, try to come up with something better next time"?
Re: Teamovitch #1
Posted: Fri Mar 04, 2011 3:56 am
by topazg
tj86430 wrote:WIC:
This one's sente, and it's the only reason I'm picking it. I'll explain more after the next options are presented.
Is this a subtle way of saying "your suggestions were all crap, try to come up with something better next time"?
WIC:
Haha, no, not at all, just not where I want to play
Re: Teamovitch #1
Posted: Fri Mar 04, 2011 8:09 am
by Chew Terr
Admittedly, I've been trying to pick moves that are sente with little cost besides mild aji-keshiness, for exactly this reason. If I don't have a definitive 'I want to play here' sense, I wanted to at least leave us an out. Not that I have any clue at the moment what Topazg wants... =)
Re: Teamovitch #1
Posted: Fri Mar 04, 2011 8:17 am
by topazg
Chew Terr wrote:
Admittedly, I've been trying to pick moves that are sente with little cost besides mild aji-keshiness, for exactly this reason. If I don't have a definitive 'I want to play here' sense, I wanted to at least leave us an out. Not that I have any clue at the moment what Topazg wants... =)
Trust your instincts and find me a cracker
Re: Teamovitch #1
Posted: Fri Mar 04, 2011 8:18 am
by fwiffo
Black suggestion:
$$Bcm41 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . O X X . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . O X . O O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X . . O . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O X . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . O . X O . O O . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X 2 , X X . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O X . 3 X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$Bcm41 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . O X X . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . O X . O O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X . . O . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O X . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . O . X O . O O . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X 2 , X X . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O X . 3 X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
It sure was nice of white to play aji-keshi. I infer that the other two suggestions were not up to Topazg's wishes. That is odd when you think about it, because there are at least 3 reasonable approaches in the unfinished corner, several aji-crushing moves on the right to permanently shut down R8, and the approach at E5. Either Topazg has very high standards, or great faith in the ability of his teammates to notice that he is burning aji and therefore waiting for a better move. The really amusing possiblity is that they may infer that he sees a way to kill the corner, and will give him more aji-keshi moves in an attempt to cooperate.
