Road to my 100 first go loss: I ask for some commentary

[oren]

I actually played some go games online against humans, and in some won position (which rarely appeared) I lost on time and this tilted me at not-human level, so I quit online for the moment

The advantages of playing humans is they'll make similar blunders that you do. Getting used to time is something you must have to do in chess as well.

[tekesta]

Well, I did not see much wrong with your game. Charles Matthews was right, though. at C16 expands eye space, which is how one makes territory in that situation. This move at C16 makes miai of D16 and B15. Miai means that one or the other is a good choice. If black plays on D16, you can take B15 and expand your eye space. If Black plays on B15, you can play at D16 and threaten either to capture the Black stone on E16 or push through at D15 and reduce Black's territory. White 136 at A14 would give you an extra point of territory. Black plays at A13, you connect at A15, and Black has to connect at B13. Otherwise, you cut at this point for double atari and you can even threaten to make use of the White stone at E13 to further reduce Black's territory. At this point in the game Black's group in the top left has weaknesses that were eventually exploited. White 148 at H13 was needed to save the 6 White stones. Otherwise Black plays here and the best you can do is play at H12 to connect. Connecting at G13 would've just meant the capture of 7 White stones. White 152 at J9 was another necessary move. White 154 at F19 is good, but this move should be at G19 to take a point from Black; at this point you are far ahead in territory, so retaining sente is not necessary.

Killing the Black group at the top right was a big gain. Congrats

[Fllecha]

Hi all,

Very tough game today, I lost by 8 and probably I missed something in the endgame... much obliged if you tell my what were my errors. I killed another group and that was a lot of fun, but again I lost control of his big up-left moyo: fortunately this time there were some reducing tricks and I managed to reduce, but again I made an error like the one I made in the two infamous games. It's clear that's a lesson that I haven't yet internalized: ALWAYS LOOKS AT HIS MOYO BEFORE THEY APPEARS

I missed some 3-3 invasion somewhere, can you please tell my when it was the right moment to do that?

Just to tell you, I was waiting for a friend and I played some 19x19 games against Igowin. A month ago I was almost never able to stay around 10k and now I destroyed it winning 5 games in a row with 30-70 points of difference reaching 4 kyu. It means nothing obv, and I perfectly know that rank give by Igowin is completely overrated, but winning that way gave me some feelings that my go improved. Little satisfactions, pleas understand that moment .

GAME 16

[EdLee]

Hi Fllecha,

- , then tenuki: R9 remains a weakness.
The net result here is you've made Black stronger, and yourself weaker. Bad for you.

This is not small, and you got poisoned by some bad teaching/advice/proverbs about 'pushing from behind'.
'Pushing from behind' -- as a local shape, is like atari -- it's neutral.
There's nothing inherently good or bad about it.
If you push from behind and the result is bad for you, DON'T do it.
If you push from behind and the result is OK or good for you, it's OK !

[Charles Matthews]

It's clear that's a lesson that I haven't yet internalized: ALWAYS LOOKS AT HIS MOYO BEFORE THEY APPEARS

Right!

Just to tell you, I was waiting for a friend and I played some 19x19 games against Igowin. A month ago I was almost never able to stay around 10k and now I destroyed it winning 5 games in a row with 30-70 points of difference reaching 4 kyu. It means nothing obv, and I perfectly know that rank give by Igowin is completely overrated, but winning that way gave me some feelings that my go improved.

Yes, you are improving.

GAME 16

I missed some 3-3 invasion somewhere, can you please tell my when it was the right moment to do that?

The corners went 50-50: two each. But Black's were larger.

At you get an option to play D17. This is what I would often do, as White in a nine-stone game. really is big. Your other chances come in the top right, after . There are some interesting ideas around the clamp at R18.

General comments. The opening wasn't great for you.

Play this at E4 (possibly F4) because of the stone to right. You become too low here.

isn't too good. I would play M6 first to see what Black will do. But if you play it, O10 next is really compulsory, from the point of view of shape.

Ha-ha, handicap go. I would be thinking about N13 or D17 here.

is passive: this is where your problems really start. You must push up at F4.

By sacrificing on the top side, Black has managed to do well on the rest of the board.

is reasonable. My instinct would be to play at H8.

is pretty big. There is a reading problem in the corner: does R18 do anything? (Shouldn't work.) So the endgame is Q19 and Black should answer R18; then R19. This is your sente, and you missed it in the game.

So when are you going to attack Black in the lower right?

J8?

[Fllecha]

Play this at E4 (possibly F4) because of the stone to right. You become too low here.

I noticed in the post-mortem analisys, I tend to prefere secure implants but the drawback is that it loses influence

Ha-ha, handicap go. I would be thinking about N13 or D17 here.

I am still afraid to attach stones, but I know that often I'm simply afraid of ghosts... In the next game I try to look at that possibility, because I have to improve my fighting skill...

see you in a few hours

[Fllecha]

Hi all,
first I want to thank you for the recent rewievs, my "study book" is growing more and more...

What is more difficult: winning a won game or lose a won game? It turns out that for me is simpler the latter.
I started with a good opening and in few moves I had a trillion potential point. Due to some passive play maybe and a worrisome endgame I managed to lose by 4 points, letting me wonder about where I lost all that trillion points. I made some analysis on that.. At least now I am better at killing groups.

Only very very very big regret was at move 47 where I missed a needed protection move that cause my position to move back and lose points. No need to worry about: it's another lesson learned.

GAME 17

[EdLee]

Hi Fllecha,

Game 17.

- This exchange by itself is unclear (like - );
it depends on your follow-up plans...

... bad. After the exchange - , all you have done locally
is make stronger, and yourself weaker: P17 and R17 remain your weak spots.

After the exchange - , you jump to -- this is good:
locally, you've made heavy, thanks to your pincer at R10.

The sequence - - is completely different:
you've made stronger, but W is free to make a perfect extension to
H16 or H17.

...which he does.

Instead of your , consider P18: next you have miai of two good follow-ups:
Q12 direction pincer and J17 direction pincer.

- After this exchange, you need to add 1 more move here to fix your shape: D8. If your plan is NOT fix your shape with D8, to tenuki on ,
then it's better to tenuki directly on , without this exchange.

More info/details.
When you play the 3-space jump , you leave a weakness at C8.
C12 is the same weak spot.
I don't know if you're aware of this, but that's the vital point of this shape.
And this is OK, as long as you can handle it.

If you tenuki on -- without the exchange with --
and W attacks at C8, it's OK:
because you can then treat lightly --
just jump to 3-3 (C3) and take the corner.

However, after your exchange - , you've destroyed your own C3 option!
Now, if you don't fix your C8 weakness and tenuki as you did ,
this time if W attacks at C8, it's much more severe:
you no longer have the option to treat - lightly --
your two stones here have now become heavy.

Therefore: if - , then your plan is at D8 -- fix your shape.
If you don't like this result, then tenuki instead directly on .

( But, this is not a big mistake at these levels.
The more serious, much more urgent mistakes are elsewhere.
This is mostly for entertainment; for future reference only.
Still, good to know. )

Your comments here "the game is completely won for Black": pure fantasy on your part. Sorry.
Up to here, both sides have made mistakes, but no huge blunders at these levels.
Both sides have weaknesses. At these levels, the game is completely up for grabs. Anything can still happen.

This invites W M3, hitting the vital point of this shape: the elephant's eye .
This could work, depending on your plans and reading.

W is worried about that group and gives up M3.

You played a bunch of small & slow moves after this.

Bad. Bad basics. Block-hane B18 the only local move.

155 Your note here "zero point move" is wrong: this is 1-point gote.

159: Pass.

[Charles Matthews]

GAME 17

Some selected mistakes.

is bad, as Ed Lee noted. In fact your opponent didn't exploit it fully. Anyway, this kind of thinking is common enough to have its own name: "clumsy double contact". After the two diagonal attachments, Black still has weaknesses at P17 and R17.

So where should this be played? I think a pro is simply not worried about the slide to O18 here. As long as Black can control the corner with Q17, there will be a viable group here.

The orthodox answer is probably N15: it can be followed up with L16, or on the right side. Immediately at O14 can't be bad. A pincer at J16 makes sense too. At O17 is a bit too steady, but isn't as bad as P17.

I agree that this is the wrong feeling here, and D8 is better.

Here I would want to play P10 first, which White should answer; and then invade at L4. Black is a little thin now in the lower right.

You need to answer on the left, really: big.

The rest of the game illustrates the saying "the centre isn't as big as you think".

[Fllecha]

Hi EdLee, thanks for that. Restudying the game I notice the value of the pincer (it doesn't allow easy extension) and now I see the difference between the two spots.

... bad. After the exchange - , all you have done locally
is make stronger, and yourself weaker: P17 and R17 remain your weak spots.

To me it seemed that my upper right corner was completely safe and alive (even if it was not already defined). In the weak points that you indicate, is there a risk of severe invading move or is only a long term weakness?

The sequence - - is completely different:
you've made stronger, but W is free to make a perfect extension to
H16 or H17.

...which he does.

Yes, now I see the difference

Your comments here "the game is completely won for Black": pure fantasy on your part. Sorry.
Up to here, both sides have made mistakes, but no huge blunders at these levels.
Both sides have weaknesses. At these levels, the game is completely up for grabs. Anything can still happen.

I didn't write very well what I meant. That sentence may be rephrased this way "With correct play from both side black has a winning position".

This invites W M3, hitting the vital point of this shape: the elephant's eye .
This could work, depending on your plans and reading.

I immediately saw that move and the shape I was creating, but I went in deep (for my level obv) calculation and I found a refutation of that move, so I decided to separate my opponent with that move. What is unclear to me is the "small moves in the follow up". I hurried up to kill the group and in the meantime I conquered some space: where is the problem?

Bad. Bad basics. Block-hane B18 the only local move.

When I was playing it I considered the proverb "Don't make empty triangles, look if you can find something better". But eventually I wanted to make solid connections in the false belief that my game was won either way. Now I see that was better.

[Fllecha]

The rest of the game illustrates the saying "the centre isn't as big as you think".

Yes it's true.

I made a calculation putting a ring of white stones around the square limitated by the hoshi stones: the inside territory is 11x11=121 net points, the outside territory is 192 (if I didn't made mistakes) and that is pretty sick for me.

[EdLee]

To me it seemed that my upper right corner was completely safe and alive (even if it was not already defined). In the weak points that you indicate, is there a risk of severe invading move or is only a long term weakness?

Hi Fllecha,

Your upper right corner, based on my experience,
and I can be completely wrong about this, is only a moyo.
It's far from completely safe (not alive at all).
( I mentioned P18 for -- someone with a nice database can search whether this was played by LeeChangHao. )
I believe there are, literally, over a million variations there.
I'm not good enough to show them to you.
Maybe some higher level folks can kindly shed some more light here.

(I also believe you need to experience hundreds of games to get some ideas about similar corner shapes. )

[EdLee]

When I was playing it I considered the proverb "Don't make empty triangles, look if you can find something better". But eventually I wanted to make solid connections in the false belief that my game was won either way. Now I see that was better.

Hi Fllecha,

This is good. You thought about the proverb,
and then came up with your own reasons to go against it.
Your reasoning turned out to be wrong,
but this is good: it's much better to have your own critical thinking,
come up with your own reasons (right or wrong),
than to blindly follow some nebulous general guideline proverbs.
Good.

[Fllecha]

Hi all,

I followed EdLee advices while playing my low chinese and it seemed to work: I made my corner more solid and then I pincered this stone keeping him overconcentrated. I wanted to play aggressively and I invaded his corners gaining 3 of them.

At move 19 I wasn't happy with my side stones because I created a group open on the side and easy to invade. Ay help for me on that?

A very risky (and bad habit) in the end almost ruined all my position, even if in the analysys I found a way to seki the corner. Eventually all things went in order and I won by 16.5 points.

Two lessons learned:
- when you have a small corner keep an eye on it and when possible make life and gg.
- Having corners you may lose influence but as a compensation you make some points, you make his moyos smaller and you force him to make territory in the center that "is always less than you think". Of course things aren't that simple, but for me is a good starting point.

GAME 18

[tekesta]

is played in the right direction. This reduces White's moyo.

If White undermines with at B10, just play at C9 to keep White low, then use your outward-facing position to reduce White's top moyo and bottom territory. at O14 is White running out into the centre. Cut off the White group while you can, probably by playing P14, after which White plays either P13 or P15. Use one of the resulting cutting points to cut apart the White group. At this point White is going to get territory from his moyo, so just reduce as much as possible. should have been tenuki, perhaps at E12 to begin reducing White's moyo or J5 to reduce White's bottom side territory and make use of the D10 and C6 Black stones. is why I recommended cutting off that White group in advance.

For the rest of the game you go on the attack and reduce White's moyo. Which is good because had White been allowed to consolidate it and make it into solid territory you would have fallen far behind. Black 115 should have been at P14 to cut off 5 White stones, though White will likely save them with a play at P15; the G11 stone in atari was the salvation of the 6 White stones in the centre.

I must say that you are playing much better than before and paying attention to your moves. Still, I would play human opponents; I recently played against a British 10k and lost by over 60 points. This is because the bot plays in one way and humans play in another. This 10k player was my first human opponent in a long time, so of course I was very rusty.