Life In 19x19

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Teamovitch #1

https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?t=2198

Page 34 of 42

Re: Teamovitch #1

Posted: Mon Mar 21, 2011 3:20 pm
by Shaddy
Obs.
Has joaz gone mad? The best black can hope for is to make a heavy group on the outside or small life in the corner.

Re: Teamovitch #1

Posted: Mon Mar 21, 2011 3:40 pm
by Jordus
Black suggestion
same sequence as last post...
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . O . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . 1 X O O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O X X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . O X . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O X . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . O . X O . O O . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X O , X X . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O X . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Re: Teamovitch #1

Posted: Mon Mar 21, 2011 4:35 pm
by fwiffo
We lost our move numbers at some point. I think we're on :b53:.

Black suggestion.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm50
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . O . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . 3 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O X X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . O X . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O X . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . O . X O . O O . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X O , X X . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O X . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
I haven't read completely, but since Joaz thinks we can win the fight, this move and the one Jordus picked are the only two that seem even plausible. But my instinct tells me Jordus's is probably correct.

Re: Teamovitch #1

Posted: Mon Mar 21, 2011 5:29 pm
by Joaz Banbeck
To observers:
Actually, I was mis-remembering the move I wanted. The solid connection works when we have a ladder breaker.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . O . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 X O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . 2 X O O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . 4 X 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 5 6 . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O X X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . O X . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O X . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . O . X O . O O . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X O , X X . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O X . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
So we really need this:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . O . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O X X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . O X . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O X . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . O . X O . O O . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X O , X X . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O X . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


And I only have one more suggestion forthcoming. :cry:

Re: Teamovitch #1

Posted: Mon Mar 21, 2011 5:33 pm
by Jedo
Have to agree with Jordus on this one, Fwiffo's seems dangerous:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . O . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 X O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . 4 X O O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . 2 O X 7 8 . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . 3 1 6 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 0 . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O X X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . O X . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O X . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . O . X O . O O . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X O , X X . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O X . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
However, I must say I'm a little surprised at the last few moves, I thought the standard sequence was fine, since we still got sente. I'm worried about the future.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . O . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . 3 X O O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . 2 O X . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . 4 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O X X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . O X . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O X . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . O . X O . O O . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X O , X X . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O X . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Re: Teamovitch #1

Posted: Mon Mar 21, 2011 5:34 pm
by Joaz Banbeck
fwiffo wrote:We lost our move numbers at some point. I think we're on :b53:.

Black suggestion.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm50
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . O . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . 3 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O X X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . O X . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O X . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . O . X O . O O . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X O , X X . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O X . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
I haven't read completely, but since Joaz thinks we can win the fight, this move and the one Jordus picked are the only two that seem even plausible. But my instinct tells me Jordus's is probably correct.

@Fwiffo:
Ummm...I was kinda hoping that you would read completely. Or, at least this far:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm50 White cannot prevent both 'a' and 'b'.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . O . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 X O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . 4 X O O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O O X 7 b . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . 3 X 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . a . 8 . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O X X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . O X . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O X . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . O . X O . O O . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X O , X X . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O X . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Re: Teamovitch #1

Posted: Mon Mar 21, 2011 5:37 pm
by Joaz Banbeck
Jedo wrote:
... I'm worried about the future.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . O . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . 3 X O O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . 2 O X . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . 4 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O X X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . O X . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O X . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . O . X O . O O . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X O , X X . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O X . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
@Jedo:
I'm worried too. Can you save us?
@Self:
MEMO: Never, ever play an obscure joseki in a teamovich game.

Re: Teamovitch #1

Posted: Mon Mar 21, 2011 5:48 pm
by Joaz Banbeck
@Jedo:
matchbook.jpg
matchbook.jpg (31.08 KiB) Viewed 7437 times

Re: Teamovitch #1

Posted: Mon Mar 21, 2011 6:22 pm
by fwiffo
Black internal:
Well, yes, that was the kind of thing I was concerned about, but Jordus already suggested the only move I saw, so I threw out the only other idea I had. In a game I would never have played :b49: or :b51:, so I'm lost for getting us out of this pickle. I will spend some more time looking at it, please don't move until at least tomorrow.

Re: Teamovitch #1

Posted: Mon Mar 21, 2011 7:28 pm
by Jordus
Black internal
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . O . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . 3 X O O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . 2 O X . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . 4 1 5 . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O X X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . O X . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O X . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . O . X O . O O . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X O , X X . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O X . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Re: Teamovitch #1

Posted: Mon Mar 21, 2011 7:47 pm
by Jordus
Black chat
Only other option than what we have discussed is this
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . O . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 X O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . 4 X O O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . 2 O X . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . 6 1 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 7 . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O X X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . O X . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O X . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . O . X O . O O . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X O , X X . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O X . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
However the stone at c9 is bad for us if we play that out me thinks...

Re: Teamovitch #1

Posted: Mon Mar 21, 2011 8:03 pm
by fwiffo
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . O . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . 2 O X . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . a 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O X X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . O X . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O X . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . O . X O . O O . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X O , X X . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O X . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
We could connect with this :b53:. That way we don't get stuck with a cutting point if white pushes at a. But...
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 7 X . O . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . 6 5 X O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . 4 X O O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . 2 O X . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 8 . 3 . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . . O . . |[/go]
I don't know quite how to deal with this, but this :b53: is better than my previous suggestion, which I could only get to work with a favorable ladder, which we're never going to have. This result might be acceptable if we can live in the corner and make something of our weak group, because white is crawling away miserably. Might be better for white to sacrifice.

Re: Teamovitch #1

Posted: Mon Mar 21, 2011 8:17 pm
by Jedo
I think there may be issues with Fwiffo's suggestion:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 7 X . O . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . 6 5 X O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . 4 X O O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . 2 O X . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 8 . 3 . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . . O . . |[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 1 X X . O . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O X O O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O O X 4 . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . 2 X 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . X . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 6 . . . . . . O O X . . . . O . . |[/go]
seems dangerous. The best I can think of is something like this:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . O . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . 9 , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . 3 X O O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . 2 O X . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . 4 1 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 6 7 . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 8 . . . . . . O O X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O X X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . O X . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O X . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . O . X O . O O . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X O , X X . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O X . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
This way, we can at least salvage something by grabbing some side territory in sente using teh aji of the other stones. Then we will get a chance to lock down some more points/ reduce the middle

Re: Teamovitch #1

Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 7:34 pm
by fwiffo
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . O . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . 2 O X . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . a 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O X X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . O X . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O X . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . O . X O . O O . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X O , X X . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O X . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
I'm going to change my suggestion to this. Although I think Jordus's move is actually correct, I want to give our courageous captain some options, and I think this is better than the solid connection. My previous move is certainly bad.

Re: Teamovitch #1

Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 9:13 pm
by Joaz Banbeck
To observers:
I do believe that I have seriously screwed my undeserving teammates here. The version that I was initially thinking of requires the ladder, and we don't have it.
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