Life In 19x19

Yeah... I'm pretty sure I'm gonna have to change this move... and then the move after... and then probably one more move after that, I think...

That's going to be a large point deficit... but the alternative is losing.

The fact that Violence has never actually said what he plans on doing is totally ramping up the suspense.

I can't read any variation to a sufficient depth, but I suppose this gets us the required liberties. I don't see an immediate refutation.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc Move 121 W52 B53
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . X . . O X X . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X X O X . O O X . . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X O X . O O . X O . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . O X O O X X X X X . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . X O X O O O O O . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O X X O X X X X 6 . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . X X O O X X O O . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . O O O O X O X X O . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . O O X X 5 |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . . O X 4 |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O 2 3 |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

fills. at T9 doesn't seem to do any better.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc Move 121 W52 B53
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . X . . O X X . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X X O X . O O X . . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X O X . O O . X O . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . O X O O X X X X X 5 |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . X O X O O O O O 3 |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O X X O X X X X 6 . 4 |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . X X O O X X O O . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . O O O O X O X X O 7 |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O 1 8 |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This fails.

B S7 I can't read at all.

Uhhhhh...

There's no way that can be right. But I guess I will have to do some reading.

Could you show us the sequence you want to see?

I don't think that the two elder brothers will allow this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . X . . O X X . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X X O X . O O X . . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X O X . O O . X O . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . O X O O X X X X X . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . X O X O O O O O . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O X X O X X X X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . X X O O X X O O . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . O O O O X O X X O 5 |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . O O X X 4 |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . . O X 3 |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O 1 2 |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . B . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . X . . O X X . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X X O X . O O X . . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X O X . O O . X O . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . O X O O X X X X X . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . X O X O O O O O . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O X X O X X X X 2 . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . X X O O X X O O . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . O O O O X O X X O O |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . O O X X X |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . . O X 1 |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . 4 X 3 |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . 6 . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

As I have mentioned in previous posts, white wins a straight liberties race. Black's only chance is to make us give up a ko threat to win the race. If they can make it a ko such that we have to give up our left side group, then they get about as much on the left as they lose on the right, and it is still a wide open game.
However, if they don't find a ko, they lose big. If they find a ko that forces us to give them either our lower left or upper left group, that will not be big enough, and we will go into yose about 20 points up.

Gresil wrote:

$$Bc Move 121 W52 B53
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . X . . O X X . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X X O X . O O X . . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X O X . O O . X O . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . O X O O X X X X X . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . X O X O O O O O . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O X X O X X X X 6 . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . X X O O X X O O . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . O O O O X O X X O . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . O O X X 5 |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . . O X 4 |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O 2 3 |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc Move 121 W52 B53
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . X . . O X X . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X X O X . O O X . . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X O X . O O . X O . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . O X O O X X X X X . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . X O X O O O O O . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O X X O X X X X 6 . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . X X O O X X O O . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . O O O O X O X X O . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . O O X X 5 |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . . O X 4 |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O 2 3 |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

If for no other reason, this is wrong because nets white an extra liberty (white can make an eye and we have to approach from both sides). If we play this way we have to push there first. If we push there first, though, it's clear that white can capture us directly.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc Move 121 W52 B53
$$ | . O O X . . . O . O X O O X X X X X . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . X O X O O O O O . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O X X O X X X X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . X X O O X X O O . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . O O O O X O X X O . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . O O X X X |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . . O X a |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X a |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X a |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O O O X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X a |[/go]

Next I just want to say that this pattern is terrible for getting liberties, because the points marked 'a' are NOT liberties, black must fill them in (if we had an eye it would make them approach moves white would have to play, as we could give up our tail. But we don't so they aren't).

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wcm8 13 fills
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . X . . O X X . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X X O X . O O X . . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X O X . O O . X O . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . O X O O X X X X X . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . X O X O O O O O . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O X X O X X X X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . X X O O X X O O . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . O O O O X O X X O 5 |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . O O X X X |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . . O X X |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . 1 X 3 |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 4 |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . 7 . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Finally, starting from Gresil's desired diagram, white captures us directly like this.

I think the important thing to know is that you can't get liberties like this. Next I will read out if white can hane after we play the extension. I didn't think so before, and Violence let us play this, so I still don't think so, but I should check first.

I'd rather not post the actual sequences just yet, it spoils the surprise, I think.

I think I can at least show why I thought we were going to win, and why I think this doesn't work anymore.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc Move 121 W52 B53
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . 8 7 0 . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . 4 1 6 . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . X . 5 O X X . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X X O X . O O X . . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X O X 9 O O 2 X O 3 . |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . O X O O X X X X X . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . X O X O O O O O . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O X X O X X X X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . X X O O X X O O . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . O O O O X O X X O . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I'm sure we can all read this as 4 liberties to 3, in our favor. That's what prompted my declaration of victory.

You'll have to excuse me for the crappy reading, as it was made 21 moves ago, and it's pretty easy to mess up when you're looking ahead too deeply.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc 98B W46 B50 The position that I read from.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X X O X . O O X . . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X O X . . W . X O . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . O X O O X . X X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . X O X O O O O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O X X O X X X X C . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . X X O O . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . O O O . . . , . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc Move 121 W52 B53
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . 8 7 0 . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . 2 1 6 . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . X 5 3 O X X . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X X O X 4 O O X . . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X O X . O O . X O a . |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . O X O O X X X X X . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . X O X O O O O O . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O X X O X X X X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . X X O O X X O O . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . O O O O X O X X O . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Of course, my sequence fails because of the simple suji of W4, fixing white's shape and creating a liberty problem at a.

However, I've done a lot of reading on this, and I think this fight won't end the game. I have a few tesuji prepared, and I can't see any holes in my sequences, so let's hope for the best here.

I think, worst case scenario, this will turn into a short ko that we will win, and then both colors will make life on the top side, with us ending in gote. The S13 group should be dead, but with white sente and lots of potential, I think the game will continue. Also, the outcome may result in us being behind on correction points.

In the best case scenario, white slips up and dies in a fire everywhere and black revels in victory. Of course, I have faith that Shapenaji has read at least as far as I have and is already making plans for his upcoming play on the bottom side.

At the very least, I hope we can come out of this with some correctional point advantage.

Unfortunately, not to sound arrogant, but the sequences I have in mind are probably beyond Daniel's level.

But... they're also probably beyond Joaz's too. Hum...

I expect this. White has to play an approach move, so we win the race.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc Move 120 W52 B53
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . X . . O X X . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X X O X . O O X . . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X O X . O O . X O . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . O X O O X X X X X . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . X O X O O O O O 8 |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O X X O X X X X 6 7 . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . X X O O X X O O . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . O O O O X O X X O . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O B . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . 3 1 4 |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . 5 . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I think this, which was what I expected originally, is actually a ko.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc Move 120 W52 B53
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . . X . . O X X . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X X O X . O O X . . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X O X . O O . X O . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . O X O O X X X X X . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . X O X O O O O O . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O X X O X X X X 8 9 . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . X X O O X X O O a |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . O O O O X O X X O 0 |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . . O X b |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O B . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . 3 2 1 6 |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . 4 5 . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O 7 . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Now I'm a little confused, though, because tabemasu in another thread thought white was ahead... if we capture all this I have a hard time seeing that... Maybe I misread something? Wouldn't be the first time...

As I expected... I have to change this move.

I think that Violence just made a minor probabalistic error.

Background: anybody who has read this position in depth knows that:
1) We can win the right side semeai easily.
2) We have the liberty-gaining tesuji at S15 which wins the upper semeai for us.
3) So the best that black can do is start a ko, lose the semeais, and get a compensating ko threat.
4) The only ko threat big enough is one to kill our left side group. Our top left is not big enough.
5) If we can defend the our left side group three times, it is safe.
6) Therefore black needs to start the ko after eliminating our internal ko threats. This is best done with moves like Violence just played.

Also, it is obvious that:
1) Gresil is on the wrong track, or he would not have tried the watari.
2) Daniel too is on the wrong track; he just diverges later. If he were reading the necessity for a ko, Violence would have let his move ride. Since Violence changed his latest move, we now can infer that Daniel is trying to win one of the two possible semeais. Either he is trying to win the upper one but does not see S15, or he is trying to win the right side one but does not see the throw-ins that we have.

But, sooner or later black must play the move that Violence just disapproved. Or black doesn't get the ko.

So why does Violence spend an extra point NOW to change it? One of his teammates might discover that black needs a ko before the next move. Waiting is a no-lose proposition for Violence. Maybe they discover it, in which case he saves a point. Maybe they don't, in which case he can still disapprove, change it, and be no worse off than he is now.

The best play was for Violence to wait one move.

I didn't read long enough to be sure if this is necessary, or if we can win the fight. All I know is, this move is free, costs no more than a ko threat, and makes O16 gote. It seems like, if we can win this fight, we MIGHT need this.

I thought this gained white a liberty, but on closer inspection it doesn't. Though I still wonder what was wrong with my move, as it seems like a better way to win this. Maybe I misread something there, too?