I think Black has to abandon the middle stones. White to play makes the corner at best ko for life I think. This game is starting to look promising.
Team:
Please think very carefully about specific and fully read out sequences against both the corner and the central stones, and share the ideas here so you can discuss amongst yourselves. Learning exactly what we can get away with is vital. With a blunder, Black could be simply lost here, so knowing what opportunities we can grasp, and where the moves are to grasp them, could be vital.
Re: Teamovitch #1
Posted: Mon Mar 28, 2011 6:01 pm
by Jordus
@jedo
I think if we dont keep up the pressure on white and play your 55 this happens... aji @ (a) hurts us... now white controls the corner and almost entire left side...
$$Bcm Prisoners: None $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 5 4 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 9 X 6 O . . . . 1 . . . X . . . . . | $$ | 8 3 7 X O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | 2 B X O O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . O X a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . O X X . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . O X . O O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X . . O . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O X . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . O . X O . O O . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X O , X X . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O X . X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$Bc Clamp $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 5 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . O . . . . 1 . . . X . . . . . | $$ | 3 2 . X O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . B X O O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . O X X . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O . a . . . . O X . O O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X . . O . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O X . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . O . X O . O O . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X O , X X . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O X . X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
If there's a way we can add to the aji of our stranded outside stones in sente, I'd like to do that, though I'm not sure best how. A move on the top is big, but I think gote. Also, we have a reduction somewhere in the vicinity of a which can use that aji. Maybe a is too deep...
Re: Teamovitch #1
Posted: Tue Mar 29, 2011 1:15 pm
by fwiffo
Hold on, I think there might be a ko there still.
Re: Teamovitch #1
Posted: Tue Mar 29, 2011 10:40 pm
by Jordus
my biggest concern is that aji we are leaving... right now those two stones are so weak that they can be sealed into that middle moyo with little to no effort unless we build on them... of course it may just be my play style.. I don't like to play away from groups I am not always sure of..
Jedo's suggestion of playing elsewhere does give us some points... I guess the question is if playing elsewhere gains us enough points to be worth the possible sacrifice of the two stones and giving white that middle moyo...
Re: Teamovitch #1
Posted: Sat Apr 02, 2011 9:00 pm
by fwiffo
Black suggestion:
$$Bcm51 Prisoners: None $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . O . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . X O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . X X O O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . W X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 5 . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . O X X . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . O X . O O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X . . O . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O X . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . O . X O . O O . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X O , X X . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O X . X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$Bcm51 Prisoners: None $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . O . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . X O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . X X O O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . W X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 5 . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . O X X . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . O X . O O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X . . O . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O X . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . O . X O . O O . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X O , X X . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O X . X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
We can play this in sente and we can also respond to either white atari in sente. I don't think it's aji keshi here because I think it increases the aji of these stones. May be a case of increasing the sacrifice. After white responds we can sacrifice these stones to do a ligher reduction of white's center area, or take some territory at the top.
We have a lot of bad aji in the corner group, but now that we're playing from behind, I think we have to take some risks.
Re: Teamovitch #1
Posted: Sun Apr 03, 2011 8:37 am
by Joaz Banbeck
I have 2 of 3 suggestions. @Jordus: did I miss yours?
Re: Teamovitch #1
Posted: Sun Apr 03, 2011 1:00 pm
by Jordus
Sorry joaz thought i Said it again but was in a previous move discussion.... D13...
Re: Teamovitch #1
Posted: Wed Apr 06, 2011 11:17 am
by Joaz Banbeck
$$Bcm51 Prisoners: None $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . O . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . X O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . X X O O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . O X 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . O X X . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . O X . O O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X . . O . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O X . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . O . X O . O O . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X O , X X . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O X . X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$Bcm51 Prisoners: None $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . O . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . X O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . X X O O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . O X 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . O X X . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . O X . O O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X . . O . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O X . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . O . X O . O O . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X O , X X . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O X . X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
We are behind, and as Fwiffo noted, we have to take some risks. This preserves the D14 cutting stone in sente, and sets up some possibilities for reckless counterplay.
Re: Teamovitch #1
Posted: Wed Apr 06, 2011 11:37 am
by Chew Terr
$$Bcm51 Prisoners: None $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . O . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . X O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . X X O O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . O X 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . a c . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . | $$ | . b . . . . . . . O O X . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . O X X . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . O X . O O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X . . O . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O X . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . O . X O . O O . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X O , X X . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O X . X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$Bcm51 Prisoners: None $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . O . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . X O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . X X O O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . O X 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . a c . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . | $$ | . b . . . . . . . O O X . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . O X X . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . O X . O O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X . . O . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O X . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . O . X O . O O . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X O , X X . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O X . X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
For the sake of liberties, it looks like we need 'a', 'b', or 'c' to keep up pressure. 'a' was my first instinct, since it offers less forcing moves, but on second thought, I'm not scared of the forcing moves. Let's take 'c', so that we get more of a base and more points for every move. Both of our groups are still strong enough to attack, so it looks good.
$$Bcm51 Maybe a followup like this? $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . O . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . X O . . 0 . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . X X O O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . O X 5 . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 6 7 . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 8 . . . . . . O O X . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . O X X . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . O X . O O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X . . O . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O X . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . O . X O . O O . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X O , X X . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O X . X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$Bcm51 Maybe a followup like this? $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . O . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . X O . . 0 . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . X X O O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . O X 5 . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 6 7 . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 8 . . . . . . O O X . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . O X X . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . O X . O O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X . . O . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O X . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . O . X O . O O . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X O , X X . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O X . X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Re: Teamovitch #1
Posted: Wed Apr 06, 2011 12:35 pm
by tj86430
Chew, I take that c is your suggestion? I second that, but to suggest something else, I will say a. (And if I misinterpreted, and you are not suggesting c, then I will)
Re: Teamovitch #1
Posted: Wed Apr 06, 2011 12:45 pm
by Redundant
Chew:
One of your variations seems a little weak ... I think we can get a ko for the corner if black tenukis too much. I'm missing a bunch here, but it's impossible for there to not be something interesting in the corner.
(;GM[1]FF[4]CA[UTF-8]AP[CGoban:3]ST[2] RU[Japanese]SZ[19]KM[0.00] GN[]DT[2011-04-06]PC[http://lifein19x19.com/]AW[ec][ed][de][ee][bf][cf][pf][qf][bg][lh][ji][ki][qi][jj][ck][jk][mk][nk][jl][ol][km][jn][ln][on][lo][oo][qo][ro][op][lq][lr]AB[cc][nc][dd][pd][be][ce][qe][df][cg][kh][li][kj][lj][kk][kl][ll][ql][lm][mm][mn][io][no][cp][np][qp][rp][eq][jq][mq][oq][pq]C[Diagram from http://lifein19x19.com/
[go]$$Bcm51 Prisoners: None $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . O . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . X O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . X X O O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . O X X . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . O X . O O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X . . O . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O X . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . O . X O . O O . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X O , X X . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O X . X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Team+Obs:
Good, we smell the right amount of blood (thanks Red, I'd been really hoping we'd see that one). I love you all!!
Re: Teamovitch #1
Posted: Wed Apr 06, 2011 1:05 pm
by Chew Terr
Red:
Ah, right. Yeah, I figured there was some kind of threat to make, but I hadn't read it yet because I figured it might be bigger to take points while threatening the C13 group, as I doubted they'd tenuki, even to the corner. But you're right, that might just be big enough to do right off.
Topazg:
Following my diagram, if black plays D12, you can trigger my suggestion at C11.
tj:
High five, same plan. Really, I just wanted to have something to say to each of you. How's your go been, lately?
Re: Teamovitch #1
Posted: Wed Apr 06, 2011 4:28 pm
by Jordus
Black chat
If we want that group to survive we have to do something.... we can extend with a, maybe try b and create a wall to extend to, maybe play in the c area with hopes of connecting and destroying the moyo (c area might be better played after a...)... we could play d, if white responds with y then that sets up a group for us to run towards the other group... while surrounding the center white group at the same time... extending at (a) would probably be what I would play in a game... I dunno... these are all a few quick ideas off the top of my head...
$$Bcm Prisoners: None $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . O . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . X O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . X X O O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . O X X . a . . . . b . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . x x x . . . O X X . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O x c x . . . O X . O O . . . . . | $$ | . . . x x x . . . O X X . . O . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . d z O X X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . y O . O X . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . O . X O . O O . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X O , X X . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O X . X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
in your diagram is not a problem.