I disagree with the last move. One space to the left would be sente against the corner (Red missed a variation where black has millions of internal ko threats. That ko is pretty much unwinnable)
[go]$$Bcm51 Prisoners: None $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . W . . . . f . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . X W . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . X X W W . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . O X X . a . . . . b . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O e . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . x x x . . . O X X . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O x c x . . . O X . O O . . . . . | $$ | . . . x x x . . . O X X . . O . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . d z O X X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . y O . O X . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . O . X O . O O . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X O , X X . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O X . X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
I think just trying to run with the group would not go well. I think we need to find a creative way to sacrifice it. I'm adding points e and f to Jordus's diagram. We could play e in sente, but then it becomes harder to sacrifice. We could play f and leave the three stones for later. It would threaten to start an attack on the marked white stones with something like a, so white might have to clean up the aji immediately.
I'm currently leaning toward a move in the vicinity c, which is a pretty deep reduction of white's moyo that threatens to rescue our stranded stones.
[go]$$Bcm51 Prisoners: None $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . O . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . X O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . X X O O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . O X . O O . . . . . | $$ | . . . 7 . . . . . O X X . . O . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O X . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . O . X O . O O . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X O , X X . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O X . X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
I've decided I like this reduction move the best. It's less ambitious, but it makes it impossible for white to swallow us whole. White has so much influence that we could get in even more trouble if we went deep. At the same time, this works really well with our stones in the lower left, potentially building up a large area if white gets overly cautious about eating the three black stones inside.
It would have been awful. The biggest problem is that we had to live in gote, which really was because we had shape problems on our way out, IMO. If we had somehow been able to leave the corner in sente, we'd be up to our asses in candy and unicorns right about now.
For observers only ( good stuff for beginners here ):
fwiffo wrote:\It would have been awful. The biggest problem is that we had to live in gote, which really was because we had shape problems on our way out, IMO. If we had somehow been able to leave the corner in sente, we'd be up to our asses in candy and unicorns right about now.
Fwiffo is correct, but it is actually a little more complicated than he describes. Sente/gote are not absolute terms, although we tend to treat them as such. Sente is relative to a given position.
If there are 10 point moves available on the board, and I play a move that threatens to make 5 points, it is gote, for my opponent can profit by ignoring it. But if the biggest move elsewhere on the board is 3 points, and I make that same 5-point threat, then it is sente, for my opponent will take a loss if he ignores it.
Sente is relative to the situation. And the situation changes. ( There are lots of ways that it can change. The most certain change is in the value of the biggest move: it tends to steadily decrease. See Bill's SL post on 'temperature' at http://senseis.xmp.net/?Temperature )
The relevance of this is that we do have some threats over on the right. They just aren't big enough right now. But they will be sometime. As the board gets more crowded and the valus of available moves decreases, suddenly they will have to go back there and defend. FWIW, I hope that we get back there first. We may be able to cause them some serious trouble.
If we get a strong presence in the top center, such that their Q15 and R15 stones can't run westward, then we may be able to start a deadly attack on the right.
I ended up heading to starbucks tonight to study and spent some of that time on this game...
a move I became interested in..... i also had previously suggested (a), but as i looked I think (b) may be a better move as it gives black the chance to make a wall that will allow us to use the cut at (z) (provided white cuts at x, if white plays y we create a bamboo joint at a, with the bamboo joint in pace we can run for life or then play the shoulder hit..) to create a wall we can use to force life of our groups....
$$Bcm1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . O . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . X O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . X X O O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . O O X x b . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . O X X . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O y . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . 1 . . . . . O X X . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . O X . O O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X . . O . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . z . O X X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O X . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . O . X O . O O . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X O , X X . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O X . X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$Bcm51 Prisoners: None $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . O . . . . 7 . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . X O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . X X O O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . O X X . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . O X . O O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X . . O . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O X . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . O . X O . O O . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X O , X X . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O X . X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
I like Fwiffo's suggestion to, but my concern is that it forces white to lock up a lot of points possible. This take points for us while starting to bring the aji of saving those stone to life due to some pressure on white's four stones. I would go for a wider extenstion, but it seems dangerous
"There are no limits. There are plateaus, but you must not stay there, you must go beyond them. If it kills you, it kills you. A man must constantly exceed his level." -- Bruce Lee
Jedo wrote:... I would go for a wider extension, but it seems dangerous.
So? We're behind. We have to play aggressively.
Not only is a wider extension bigger, but if we play it just a little bit further and/or a little bit higher it becomes a ladder breaker for the ladder coming from the center of the board.
[go]$$Bcm51 Prisoners: None $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . O . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . X O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . X X O O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . O O X a 7 . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . O X X . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . O X . O O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X . . O . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O X . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . O . X O . O O . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X O , X X . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O X . X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
I dont like the white push at (a) too much, but i do like getting the bamboo joint if they play anywhere else... the push wouldnt be the end of the world either... i can see it working out after a fight in a way... hopefully i read that side right..
