In fact I find the Chinese quite hard to handle. It looks very nice for black when he plays it. Also this video is quite nice, he talks about the chinese in it I believe. http://eurogotv.com/index.php?menu=Vide ... k6ixgZmpH4
Re: A beginner's journal of little interest
Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 8:47 am
by Boidhre
tomukaze wrote:
Boidhre wrote: I flirted with the mini-Chinese and Orthodox fusekis
In fact I find the Chinese quite hard to handle. It looks very nice for black when he plays it. Also this video is quite nice, he talks about the chinese in it I believe. http://eurogotv.com/index.php?menu=Vide ... k6ixgZmpH4
You and your Great Wall fuseki.
Re: A beginner's journal of little interest
Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 12:41 pm
by Boidhre
Had a long game with Anthony/grooviest. Some of the moves were recorded incorrectly, 99 and 100 for instance, so I stopped recording in the middle of the yose. The final result was W + 9.5. I messed up in the transition from fuseki to middlegame and the game was only as tight as it was because of a mistake by Anthony in the bottom left.
I felt completely outplayed in the early middlegame. My cap on the left side was ill-judged, or just mis-played by me, I'm not sure which.
Re: A beginner's journal of little interest
Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 1:14 pm
by Boidhre
So topazg answered my question and the cap was fine if I'd know the midgame joseki.
Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 1:51 pm
by EdLee
A few questions for you.
(;CA[utf-8]GM[1]FF[4]AP[SmartGo:2.8.3.0]SZ[19]RU[Japanese Rules]GN[2012-09-11a] DT[2012-09-11]PB[Padraig]PW[Anthony]KM[6.5]MULTIGOGM[0] ;B[pd];W[dp];B[pq];W[po];B[dc];W[de];B[fd];W[cc];B[cb];W[cd] (;B[bb]LB[eb:a]C[What is the meaning of this descend? How is it different from the tigers mouth (a) ? See Malkovich Game 180, Splatted vs konfuzed.] ;W[ci];B[ic]LB[eb:a][bb:b][pl:c]C[If B had played (a) the joseki tigers mouth, instead of (b), to begin with, then B would not need to add a move here. B lost sente -- B could have pincered at (c), for example, instead of this move.] ;W[qf];B[nc];W[qk];B[mq];W[qq];B[qr];W[qp];B[fq];W[cn];B[jp];W[of];B[dr]TR[dr][fq] [jp]C[Why is this shape (3 triangled stones) not a good combo for B ?];W[rd];B[qc] ;W[lc];B[rc]C[Why is this soft? Do you have another idea?];W[jc] (;B[jd]C[Why did you choose this hane? See var.];W[kd];B[id]LB[ke:a][kf:b]C[Locally, if W simply (a) or (b), is B pushing from behind ?] ;W[me]LB[lc:a][ne:b][ic:c][nc:d]C[W original weak stone, (a), has now become thickness.-- this is a huge change -- you can still push-and-cut at (b) and fight, but it is already not as good as before.
Also, the relationship of (c), (a) group, and (d) is kind of a broken shape for B.] ;B[ok] (;W[pi]C[Soft? Do you have another idea for W here?];B[om];W[pl];B[ol];W[no];B[mn] ;W[nn];B[nm];W[mo];B[cq];W[ei];B[lm];W[ln];B[lo];W[or];B[oq];W[mm];B[ml];W[lp];B[mn] ;W[ko];B[lq];W[km];B[kl];W[mm];B[pm];W[qm];B[mn];W[qd];B[mm];W[pb];B[pn];W[qn];B[oo] ;W[np];B[nq];W[op];B[pc];W[nb];B[ob];W[oa];B[oc];W[mb];B[pa];W[qa];B[qb];W[pa];B[ra] ;W[na];B[sb];W[mi];B[lj];W[li];B[kj];W[en];B[fo];W[jb];B[ib];W[rr];B[pr];W[ff];B[jm] ;W[cp];B[gl];W[fl];B[jf];W[kf];B[kg];W[lf];B[lg];W[mg];B[ki];W[kp];B[kq];W[jo];B[io] ;W[jn];B[in];W[dq];B[cr];W[eq];B[er];W[gk]TR[el];B[ij];W[gi];B[pp];W[on];B[mp];W[oo] ;B[kn];W[qo];B[lo];W[ia];B[ha];W[ja];B[hb];W[rs];B[ae];W[be];B[ad];W[af];B[bc];W[bd] ;B[ac];W[bf];B[sd];W[re];B[hh];W[hf];B[gg];W[gf];B[fg];W[ef];B[eg];W[dg];B[pj];W[qj] ;B[oi];W[ph];B[oh];W[og];B[ni];W[nh];B[ne];W[nf];B[mj];W[ig];B[kh];W[hi];B[ih];W[hg] ;B[gh];W[mh];B[bq];W[bp];B[ap];W[ao];B[aq];W[bn];B[pk];W[ql];B[fm];W[em];TY[ec][gc][ld:le][od][pf][sf][dh][ji:jl][fj:gj][ij][gk:gl][kk][il:im][em:en][fm][hn][do][fo:go][ps] TZ[gl][fm]TH[fi:fj][gj:gp][hj:hn][ij:im][jk:jl][em:fp][do]TP[gl][fm]DB[aa:da][fa:fc][sa][ab][db][rb][ec][gc:hc][sc][od][ji:jl][oj][kk][mk:nk][il:im][ll][nl][km][hn:hq][jn:jo][ln][go][ko:kp][ip:iq][lp][gq][jq:js][ar:bs][fr:fs][kr:ns][cs:es][os:ps] DW[ka:ma][lb][kc][ld:le][ce:ch][qe][df][mf][pf][rf:sf][ag:bg][ng][qg:qi][rh:sq][ai:bi][di:do][cj:cm][ej:gj][ek][an][bo:co][sr:ss] B[gl]TB[bc][dc][nc][pc][fd][jd][sd][ne][jf][eg][kg][lg][gh][oh][ji][ni][ij][lj] [mj][pj][gl][il][fm][pm][hn][fo][ap][mp][pp][bq][fq][nq][dr][qr][aa][ra][ib][ob] [qb][ac]TW[kd][qd][de][le][af][ef][kf][nf][of][sf][hg][mg][ph][ei][gi][hi][li][fj] [pl][nn][mo][po][eq][rr][ia][jb][pb][cc][jc][bd]V[-9.5]) (;W[mk])) (;B[id])) (;B[eb]C[Joseki.];W[ci]C[Joseki.]))
Re: A beginner's journal of little interest
Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 2:06 pm
by Boidhre
Question 1: Oh, that's fascinating. I agree the tiger's mouth is a far better move than the one I chose.
Question 2: I think it's because it requires another move to reinforce the group after committing another stone there. If white had responded my idea was to play F5. Though, if I wanted to slide into the corner in the first place then K4 is misplaced so my play is inconsistent here?
Question 3: This move bothers me, but I've been told it's solid in this kind of position. I considered something like N16 to pressure the invading stone and give white a choice of saving it or pushing in at S17.
Question 4: I was torn between the hane and the nobi. My first instinct was the nobi, I went into analysis paralysis and decided on the hane for no good reason despite knowing that it gave white good shape. I had a lot of problems in the midgame with analysis paralysis and picking poor moves after overthinking things.
Question 5: From behind.
Point 6: Point taken this result was terrible for black.
Question 7: Topazg already said to me that White should have keima'd to the other side to push me against his strength on top and to make the ladder not work for the joseki associated with the cap.
It depends. In some cases, the descend is better; in some other cases, the tiger's mouth is better. See Malkovich Game 180, Splatted vs konfuzed: Intrepid's Post #17 in that thread.
It depends. In some cases, the descend is better; in some other cases, the tiger's mouth is better. See Malkovich Game 180, Splatted vs konfuzed: Intrepid's Post #17 in that thread.
I read it and say the logic immediately, it was very well explained. I lack a stone in the top to protect my group so the descend lacks any real threat.
Re: A beginner's journal of little interest
Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 3:40 pm
by skydyr
Boidhre wrote:Question 3: This move bothers me, but I've been told it's solid in this kind of position. I considered something like N16 to pressure the invading stone and give white a choice of saving it or pushing in at S17.
It's solid, but it's a move to live. This is only necessary if the white groups on both sides are strong. Here, pushing out to the center doubles as an attack on the lone white stone, so if white ignores it to take the corner, black may just take the whole top side.
Re: A beginner's journal of little interest
Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 5:06 pm
by speedchase
If you play the keima on the third line instead (make it an one point jump) you can take the corner and keep sente. That being said, which is better depends on the situation, but pros don't like the tiger's mouth variation because it is slower
Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 6:04 pm
by EdLee
Boidhre wrote:Question 2: I think it's because it requires another move to reinforce the group after committing another stone there. ... Though, if I wanted to slide into the corner in the first place then K4 is misplaced so my play is inconsistent here?
Yes, and yes. If you want the corner direction, keima directly (D2, ) from F3 (without K4). If you want to pull back to K4, that is also OK (which you did with ). But not both. Because after D2, the two keima stones (F3-D2) are now heavier (than F3 alone), and H3 becomes a bigger problem for B (than with F3-K4 alone, without D2).
Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 6:17 pm
by EdLee
Boidhre wrote:Question 3: This move bothers me, but I've been told it's solid in this kind of position. I considered something like N16 to pressure the invading stone...
Yes, what skydyr said. I would seriously consider N16 kosumi also. (My first feeling was O15, the "sake-cup shape". There are pros and cons, so I dunno which is better (O15 v. N16); but the point is you want to get out, cut W off, defend, and attack all at the same time. ) I feel the trap here was "this kind of position", versus "this exact position," so reviews are very useful to help us learn when and when not to play (S17).
Re: A beginner's journal of little interest
Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 6:20 pm
by Bill Spight
You are getting in touch with your inner shodan, I see.
Some comments. You will see that Ed and I often think alike.
(;FF[4]AP[GOWrite:2.2.21]GM[1]CA[ISO8859-1]ST[2]SZ[19]DT[2012-09-11]PB[Padraig]PM[0]GN[2012-09-11a]RU[Japanese Rules]KM[6.5]FG[259:]PW[Anthony] ;B[pd] ;W[dp] ;B[pq] ;W[po] ( ;B[dc]C[*** Invites a good play by White. See variation.] ;W[de]C[*** See?] ;B[fd] ;W[cc] ;B[cb] ;W[cd] ( ;B[bb]C[*** Leaves weaknesses behind. See variation.] ;W[ci] ;B[ic]C[*** Black ends up with gote.] ;W[qf] ;B[nc]C[*** Cedes the right side to White, while Black already has a presence on the top. A pincer is better, IMO.] ;W[qk] ;B[mq]C[*** Thin.] ;W[qq] ;B[qr] ;W[qp] ;B[fq] ;W[cn] ;B[jp] ;W[of]C[*** Time to plan.] ( ;B[dr]C[*** Is this the crucial part of the board? What if White ignores this play? See variation.] ;W[rd] ;B[qc] ;W[lc] ( ;B[rc]C[*** Passive. Single purpose. See variation.] ;W[jc] ( ;B[jd]C[*** White wants variations. This play helps. See variation.] ;W[kd] ( ;B[id]C[*** You could have played B33 without the exchange, B31 - W32. See variation.] ;W[me]C[*** Now Black regrets not cutting White off.] ;B[ok] ;W[pi] ( ;B[om]C[*** See variation.] ;W[pl] ( ;B[ol] ;W[no]C[*** Ouch!] ;B[mn] ;W[nn] ( ;B[nm]C[*** Bad shape. See variation.] ;W[mo] ( ;B[cq]C[*** What is urgent? See variation.] ;W[ei] ( ;B[lm]C[*** Yes, but. See variation.] ;W[ln] ;B[lo]C[*** Nice try, but no cigar.] ;W[or] ( ;B[oq]C[*** See variation.] ;W[mm]C[*** Ouch!] ;B[ml] ;W[lp] ;B[mn] ;W[ko]C[*** Ouch, again.] ;B[lq] ;W[km] ;B[kl] ;W[mm] ( ;B[pm]C[*** See variation.] ;W[qm] ;B[mn] ;W[qd] ;B[mm]C[*** What does this gain?] ;W[pb] ;B[pn] ;W[qn] ;B[oo] ;W[np] ;B[nq] ;W[op] ;B[pc] ;W[nb] ;B[ob] ;W[oa] ;B[oc] ;W[mb] ;B[pa]C[*** Well done!] ;W[qa] ( ;B[qb]C[*** See variations.] ;W[pa] ;B[ra] ;W[na] ;B[sb] ;W[mi] ( ;B[lj]C[*** Single purpose move. See variations.] ;W[li] ;B[kj] ;W[en]C[*** Sigh!] ( ;B[fo]C[See variation.] ;W[jb] ;B[ib] ;W[rr] ;B[pr] ;W[ff] ;B[jm] ;W[cp] ;B[gl] ;W[fl] ;B[jf] ;W[kf] ;B[kg] ;W[lf] ;B[lg] ;W[mg] ;B[ki] ;W[kp] ;B[kq] ;W[jo] ;B[io] ;W[jn] ;B[in] ;W[dq] ;B[cr] ;W[eq] ;B[er] ;W[gk]TR[el] ;B[ij] ;W[gi] ;B[pp] ;W[on] ;B[mp]C[*** Well done! End of comments.] ;W[oo] ;B[kn] ;W[qo] ;B[lo] ;W[ia] ;B[ha] ;W[ja] ;B[hb] ;W[rs] ;B[ae] ;W[be] ;B[ad] ;W[af] ;B[bc] ;W[bd] ;B[ac] ;W[bf] ;B[sd] ;W[re] ;B[hh] ;W[hf] ;B[gg] ;W[gf] ;B[fg] ;W[ef] ;B[eg] ;W[dg] ;B[pj] ;W[qj] ;B[oi] ;W[ph] ;B[oh] ;W[og] ;B[ni] ;W[nh] ;B[ne] ;W[nf] ;B[mj] ;W[ig] ;B[kh] ;W[hi] ;B[ih] ;W[hg] ;B[gh] ;W[mh] ;B[bq] ;W[bp] ;B[ap] ;W[ao] ;B[aq] ;W[bn] ;B[pk] ;W[ql] ;B[fm] ;W[em] ;TY[ec gc ld\:le od pf sf dh ji\:jl fj\:gj ij gk\:gl kk il\:im em\:en fm hn do fo\:go ps]TZ[gl fm]DB[aa\:da fa\:fc sa ab db rb ec gc\:hc sc od ji\:jl oj kk mk\:nk il\:im ll nl km hn\:hq jn\:jo ln go ko\:kp ip\:iq lp gq jq\:js ar\:bs fr\:fs kr\:ns cs\:es os\:ps]TB[aa:ha][ab:ib][ac:bc][ad:ae][ap][aq:cq][ar:qr][as:ps][dc:ic][eg:gg][fd][fm][fo:lo][fq:pq][gh:ih][gl][hn:mn][hp:mp][id:jd][ij:pj][il:ol][im:pm][jf][ji:ki][jk:pk][kg:lg][kh][nc:sc][ne][ni:oi][ob][od:pd][oh][pn][pp][qb:sb][ra:sa][sd]TH[fi\:fj gj\:gp hj\:hn ij\:im jk\:jl em\:fp do]DW[ka\:ma lb kc ld\:le ce\:ch qe df mf pf rf\:sf ag\:bg ng qg\:qi rh\:sq ai\:bi di\:do cj\:cm ej\:gj ek an bo\:co sr\:ss]V[-9.5][-9.5]B[gl]TW[af:hf][ag:dh][ai:ei][aj:gk][al:fl][am:en][ao:do][bd:cd][be:de][bp:dp][cc][dq:eq][gi:hi][hg:ig][ia:qa][jb:nb][jc:lc][kd:ld][kf:sf][le:me][li:mi][mg:sg][mh:nh][mo:so][nn:on][np:op][pb][ph:si][pl:sl][qd:re][qj:sk][qm:sn][qp:sq][rr:ss]TP[gl fm] ) ( ;B[ek]C[*** Reduce.] )
) ( ;B[jm]C[*** Better locally.] )
( ;B[dm]C[*** Hope that your center group lives.] )
) ( ;B[qb] ;W[ra]C[*** White can make ko.] )
( ;B[ra]C[*** Prevents that ko.] ;W[rb]C[*** Does not work.] ;B[qb] ;W[sa] ;B[sc]C[*** Ko is not necessary.] ;W[pa] ;B[sb] ;W[na] ;B[ra] )
) ( ;B[ll]C[*** This strengthens Black anyway. Say thank you to White.] )
) ( ;B[ql] ( ;W[pl]C[*** Not so good, I think.] ;B[pk] ;W[pm]C[*** Otherwise White gets badly overconcentrated when Black sacrifices two stones.] ;B[qj] ;W[rk] ;B[qi]C[*** Tesuji.] ( ;W[rl] ;B[ph]C[*** Nice.] ) ( ;W[qh] ;B[rl] ( ;W[rh] ;B[rj]C[*** Very good for Black.] ) ( ;W[rm] ;B[rj] ;W[qm] ;B[sk]C[*** Very good for Black.] )
) ( ;B[jb] ( ;W[kc]C[*** Bad shape.] ) ( ;W[kb] ;B[kc]C[*** Very inviting.] )
)
) ( ;B[id]C[*** Simple, solid, and strong. Dual purpose, as it combines attack and defense.] )
) ( ;B[ne]C[*** Keep White cut off. This also strengthens the Black group.] )
) ( ;B[pj]C[*** White threatens to make a huge framework. This is my first thought.] )
) ( ;B[eb]C[*** Good enough.] )
) ( ;B[cd]C[*** Better, eh?] )
)
Re: A beginner's journal of little interest
Posted: Wed Sep 12, 2012 1:43 am
by Boidhre
Thank you Ed and Bill for the detailed comments.
Re: A beginner's journal of little interest
Posted: Wed Sep 12, 2012 2:04 am
by Boidhre
Actually I didn't even consider the shoulder hit there instead of the cap. Hmm, my move selection needs a lot of work. I need to try more moves in games/watch more games/do something to change this.
) from F3 (without K4).
).
(S17).