Non standard 9 or 10 stones handicap placement

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Tue May 13, 2014 12:14 am

oca wrote:"Miai" is very special to me, as it was my first post on this forum.

Nice!

You can also think in terms of follow-ups:
if your move has only one good follow-up, that's nice (better than none);
if your move has two good follow-ups, that's better (already miai idea);
if it has three or more good follow-ups, congrats!!

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Tue May 13, 2014 12:26 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 4 . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 6 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . , 3 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Hi oca, after :w6:

, W has two good follow-ups: (a) and (b).
W can start to make a base with :white:

(a), or
W can start to make a base with :white:

(b) --
both are good follow-ups for W.
Whether B approaches :w6:

from the top or from the bottom,
W has a good reply.
We consider (a) and (b) miai for W.

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Tue May 13, 2014 12:44 am

oca wrote:Even if most of the time I'm only using it to it's most basic form (kosumi connection)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ . . . . . . . . . $$ . . . a X . . . . $$ . . . X b . . . . $$ . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Yes, follow-ups: (a) and (b).
If :white:

(a), B has the follow-up :black:

(b);
if

(b), B has the follow-up :black:

(a).

Look for good follow-ups.

Mike Novack · Post by **Mike Novack** » Tue May 13, 2014 5:28 am

oca wrote:
Mike Novack wrote:I ofen play against igowin on iphone. I set the compteur to it's maximum level (3kyu) and with 19x19, I start to lose at 5 stones handicap...

I also like to play even game on 13x13, that fit well with the time I have in the train...
I lose most of the time, either I'm just to small (3 to 5 pts) or if I try to be more agressiv, I usually lose them all BUT I still won 3-4 games... so I know I can beat him

a) Well an iphone is a communication device, not much "crunch" power. But if it is powerful enough to give you trouble at five stones, you should be able to learn a lot from it << the PC version of this program would be about 1 dan KGS on a modest PC and about 3 dan on a top of the line workstation >>

b) Try to work your way down from five stones to three. I'd think that enough of a goal for the immediate future.

c) But remember, losing by 3-5 stones does not necessarily mean you are close to dropping a handicap stone. If the computer program considers itself safely ahead it will play safe to ensure victory even if that costs some of the margin.

skydyr · Post by **skydyr** » Tue May 13, 2014 12:11 pm

EdLee wrote:
oca wrote:"Miai" is very special to me, as it was my first post on this forum.
Nice! You can also think in terms of follow-ups:
if your move has only one good follow-up, that's nice (better than none);
if your move has two good follow-ups, that's better (already miai idea);
if it has three or more good follow-ups, congrats!!

I've heard a heuristic before that a candidate move to invade should have at least 3 good follow-ups.

oca · Post by **oca** » Fri May 16, 2014 12:38 am

I just added a "summary zone" on the bottom of the first post.
viewtopic.php?p=163715#p163715

oca · Post by **oca** » Fri May 16, 2014 4:31 am

Game #4 has just began...
http://online-go.com/game/605761

Abyssinica · Post by **Abyssinica** » Sun May 18, 2014 8:45 pm

Just as a thought experiment for non-standard handicap placements, let's take an amateur 7d and an amateur 13k and give them this board.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c 19 stone game $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . , . . . . . B . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . B . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

How do you think it would go down? (I am aware any handicaps after 9 tend to get out of hand.)

oca · Post by **oca** » Mon May 19, 2014 12:22 am

Sometimes, (for instance http://online-go.com/game/605761 - move 120) I feel I need that one to win ;-)

...

oca · Post by **oca** » Tue May 20, 2014 7:43 am

Try #4 - "The Big Square" just completed...

Illluck won by quite a lot

(and that may even be worst for me as he was kind enougth to let my bottom left group live at least twice... :blackeye:

)

226 moves (243 moves - 17 initials moves)
Corrected total to match 0.5 komi :
W(illluck)+39.5 (45.5 - 6)

Summary (on first post) updated with the full game.

I feelt like in the first game, very not easy for me to use the handicap stones...
The first move that I missed was black 27... I think the joseki is more to atari the other stone by playing R2 instead of P4...

oca · Post by **oca** » Tue May 20, 2014 9:09 am

Just a quick approximative one...

Code: Select all

----------------------------------------
Found 1 games in file 'sgf/illluck/02_borders_and_tengen.sgf'
----------------------------------------
----------------------------------------
Found 1 games in file 'sgf/illluck/03_standard_9_stones.sgf'
----------------------------------------
----------------------------------------
Found 1 games in file 'sgf/illluck/04_big_square.sgf'
----------------------------------------
PLUGIN : COUNT MOVES

766 moves
----------------------------------------
PLUGIN : MOVE STATISTICS

WARNING :
More a toy then a serious analysis tool...
This is just a prototype, the result is still very... approximative...

                  black   white
                  -----   -----
          Hoshi :     1       0
         Sansan :     2       0
         Tengen :     2       0
         Komoku :     1       0
         Kakari :     0       0
           Nobi :    99      91
         Kosumi :    43      45
           Hane :    59      76
     Ikken tobi :   114      88
     Niken tobi :    57      48
        Kogeima :    64      40
         Ogeima :    29      15
    Daidaigeima :    13      13
      Cross cut :     1       1
           Peep :     6      19
            Cap :     2       1
   Shoulder hit :     1       6
          Tsuke :     7      10
           Bump :     1       0
            Cut :    11      19
 Empty triangle :    14      10
  Full triangle :     8      13
           Turn :     4       3
    Bamboo join :     0       0
    Table shape :     7       2
    Tiger mouth :     0       4
        Ponnuki :    12      24
 Tortoise Shell :     2       4
   Elephant eye :     5       6
          Crawl :     4       7
         Atari* :    42      44
     Connection :    46      25

=============================================================
Not identified :
Black : 27
White : 41
----------------------------------------

First, my tool just don't fully work... so take it with A LOT of care...
Ponnuki, peep and cut are interesting through...

Bonobo · Post by **Bonobo** » Tue May 20, 2014 10:01 am

oca wrote:[..]

Code: Select all

----------------------------------------
Found 1 games in file 'sgf/illluck/02_borders_and_tengen.sgf'
----------------------------------------
----------------------------------------
Found 1 games in file 'sgf/illluck/03_standard_9_stones.sgf'
----------------------------------------
----------------------------------------
Found 1 games in file 'sgf/illluck/04_big_square.sgf'
----------------------------------------
PLUGIN : COUNT MOVES

766 moves
----------------------------------------
PLUGIN : MOVE STATISTICS

WARNING :
More a toy then a serious analysis tool...
This is just a prototype, the result is still very... approximative...

                  black   white
                  -----   -----
          Hoshi :     1       0
         Sansan :     2       0
         Tengen :     2       0
         Komoku :     1       0
         Kakari :     0       0
           Nobi :    99      91
         Kosumi :    43      45
           Hane :    59      76
     Ikken tobi :   114      88
     Niken tobi :    57      48
        Kogeima :    64      40
         Ogeima :    29      15
    Daidaigeima :    13      13
      Cross cut :     1       1
           Peep :     6      19
            Cap :     2       1
   Shoulder hit :     1       6
          Tsuke :     7      10
           Bump :     1       0
            Cut :    11      19
 Empty triangle :    14      10
  Full triangle :     8      13
           Turn :     4       3
    Bamboo join :     0       0
    Table shape :     7       2
    Tiger mouth :     0       4
        Ponnuki :    12      24
 Tortoise Shell :     2       4
   Elephant eye :     5       6
          Crawl :     4       7
         Atari* :    42      44
     Connection :    46      25

=============================================================
Not identified :
Black : 27
White : 41
----------------------------------------

[..]
Ponnuki, peep and cut are interesting through...

Agreed.

Greetings, Tom

oca · Post by **oca** » Wed May 21, 2014 4:10 am

Bonobo wrote:
Seinsei’s Library wrote:Sometimes the term kogeima (or small knight's move) is used [..]

Greetings, Tom

I understand 'keima' as being a general term for all the knight's moves, so I suppose counting all keima's moves would be
Kogeima + Ogeima + Daidaigeima ... but I'm not sure...

Bonobo · Post by **Bonobo** » Wed May 21, 2014 7:43 am

oca wrote:I understand 'keima' as being a general term for all the knight's moves, so I suppose counting all keima's moves would be
Kogeima + Ogeima + Daidaigeima ... but I'm not sure...

Mh… perhaps really check http://senseis.xmp.net/?keima, maybe reconsider? But I’m far from being an expert …

Greetings, Tom

oca · Post by **oca** » Wed May 21, 2014 7:58 am

Bonobo wrote:
oca wrote:I understand 'keima' as being a general term for all the knight's moves, so I suppose counting all keima's moves would be
Kogeima + Ogeima + Daidaigeima ... but I'm not sure...
Mh… perhaps really check http://senseis.xmp.net/?keima, maybe reconsider? But I’m far from being an expert …

Greetings, Tom

oh... yes... well... hmmm.. :study:

I really don't know... actually

Life In 19x19

Non standard 9 or 10 stones handicap placement

Re: Non standard 9 or 10 stones handicap placement

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Re: Non standard 9 or 10 stones handicap placement

Re: Non standard 9 or 10 stones handicap placement

Re: Non standard 9 or 10 stones handicap placement

Re: Non standard 9 or 10 stones handicap placement

Re: Non standard 9 or 10 stones handicap placement

Re: Non standard 9 or 10 stones handicap placement

Re: Non standard 9 or 10 stones handicap placement

Re: Non standard 9 or 10 stones handicap placement

Re: Non standard 9 or 10 stones handicap placement

Re: Non standard 9 or 10 stones handicap placement