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67. Loons (3k) vs. Shaddy(1d)

https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?t=1328

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Re: 67. Loons (3k) vs. Shaddy(1d)

Posted: Wed Aug 11, 2010 9:24 am
by calm
amnal wrote::shock:
White's move is appalling. I barely feel that this should go in hide tags, everyone already knows ;)

This is definitely a case of outsmarting oneself. White must remember that even if black will push and cut, and even if white will have to deal with some damaged groups, *black needs to be cut too*. If black pushes straight through the white strength without recompense, well...white is going to lose horribly.


Granted White's move is appalling, true, but Blacks reply is even more appalling he needs to push straight out not hane.

Re: 67. Loons (3k) vs. Shaddy(1d)

Posted: Wed Aug 11, 2010 9:38 am
by amnal
calm wrote:
amnal wrote::shock:
White's move is appalling. I barely feel that this should go in hide tags, everyone already knows ;)

This is definitely a case of outsmarting oneself. White must remember that even if black will push and cut, and even if white will have to deal with some damaged groups, *black needs to be cut too*. If black pushes straight through the white strength without recompense, well...white is going to lose horribly.


Granted White's move is appalling, true, but Blacks reply is even more appalling he needs to push straight out not hane.


I did think about this, but it's not obvious to me. A side effect of white's tenuki is that he's a move behind, he hardly has time to cut now as black no longer cares. This move seems to help white by attacking the least badly sacrificed of white's stones, but it doesn't seem as bad as white's letting black do any of this at all.

I think white's omission is a far more important thing to focus on, but I also think that mistakes like this only happen because a player is learning enough new things for the old ones to waver - I'd be optimistic :D

Re: 67. Loons (3k) vs. Shaddy(1d)

Posted: Wed Aug 11, 2010 9:49 am
by Dusk Eagle
Loons wrote:Augh, I must take a few days off go I think, I just lost a game on KGS in a silly way -_-, I feel I need some time to regroup

Maybe you should have taken a break without leaving a sealed move.

amnal wrote:I also think that mistakes like this only happen because a player is learning enough new things for the old ones to waver

Hopefully this is true.

Also, I agree with calm that pushing straight through would be a better response, but I do not agree when calm says it is "even more appalling" than white's move.

Re: 67. Loons (3k) vs. Shaddy(1d)

Posted: Wed Aug 11, 2010 12:17 pm
by Shaddy
I hope all these posts are not directed at me.. oh dear.

Re: 67. Loons (3k) vs. Shaddy(1d)

Posted: Wed Aug 11, 2010 1:31 pm
by dfan
The thing that makes me want to have pushed through with Black, just from a shape perspective, is that this snapshot almost looks like part of a real game:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ . . . . .
$$ . . . X .
$$ O O X O .
$$ X X X . .
$$ . . . . .[/go]

while this looks so horrible for White it doesn't even look like Go:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ . . . . .
$$ . . X . .
$$ O O X O .
$$ X X X . .
$$ . . . . .[/go]

Re: 67. Loons (3k) vs. Shaddy(1d)

Posted: Wed Aug 11, 2010 2:24 pm
by Magicwand
dfan wrote:
The thing that makes me want to have pushed through with Black, just from a shape perspective, is that this snapshot almost looks like part of a real game:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ . . . . .
$$ . . . X .
$$ O O X O .
$$ X X X . .
$$ . . . . .[/go]

while this looks so horrible for White it doesn't even look like Go:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ . . . . .
$$ . . X . .
$$ O O X O .
$$ X X X . .
$$ . . . . .[/go]


for those who can not tell which is better
hanne first diag is a better move than second diag.

Re: 67. Loons (3k) vs. Shaddy(1d)

Posted: Wed Aug 11, 2010 2:31 pm
by daniel_the_smith
hane is better; it not only separates, it threatens to capture something.

Re: 67. Loons (3k) vs. Shaddy(1d)

Posted: Wed Aug 11, 2010 3:34 pm
by dfan
Thanks, Magicwand and daniel_the_smith.

I feel like the hane gives the lone White stone meaning in a way that pushing through does not. But I guess that the hane stone itself has much more meaning than the push-through.

Re: 67. Loons (3k) vs. Shaddy(1d)

Posted: Mon Aug 16, 2010 11:21 pm
by Loons
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . X O . . X X O X O O . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . O . , . . X O X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . O . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . O . . . . . . X W . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . X O O O O O X O , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . X X X . X X X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Alright, your move Shaddy...

As to my last two moves; well, this is the mistake I like to make. I like how Plusguy describes my habit - I "go fishing while my house is on fire".

Also, Kageyama is rolling in his grave...
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B ...No matter what happens next, Black has to stop White at 1.
$$--------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ . X . . . X W X . . |
$$ . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


Well, damage control time, I guess...

Re: 67. Loons (3k) vs. Shaddy(1d)

Posted: Tue Aug 17, 2010 12:11 am
by Shaddy
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . X O . . X X O X O O . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . O . , . . X O X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . O . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . B . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . O . . . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . X O O O O O X O , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . X X X . X X X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


The big white wall is turning heavy...

Re: 67. Loons (3k) vs. Shaddy(1d)

Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 2:06 pm
by Loons
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . X O . . X X O X O O . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . O . , . . X O X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . O . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . 2 B . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . O . . . . . 1 X O . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . X O O O O O X O a . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . X X X . X X X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . d . . . c . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

So here's my dilemma. Obviously I want to play the 1/2 exchange, to atone for my earlier sins, however I have created a weakness for myself at 'a' - so if I actually want to cut black, it is gote for me, and black will easily live with large territory, considering Q10. However, c has some weaknesses, which may let me get something around d in sente, with a bit of reading. I think, considering there is a fight ensuing in the centre, I shall simply play solidly.


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . X O . . X X O X O O . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . O . , . . X O X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . O . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . O . . . . . W X O . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . X O O O O O X O , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . X X X . X X X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Trigger:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . X O . . X X O X O O . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . O . , . . X O X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . O . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . 1 B . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . O . . . . . W X O . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . X O O O O O X O 2 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . X X X . X X X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Re: 67. Loons (3k) vs. Shaddy(1d)

Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 2:16 pm
by Shaddy
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . X O . . X X O X O O . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . O . , . . X O X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . O . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . 2 X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O 4 O . . . . . 1 X O . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . X O O O O O X O 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . X X X . X X X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I think I'll just take some solid territory.

Re: 67. Loons (3k) vs. Shaddy(1d)

Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 2:26 pm
by Chew Terr
You guys played the game to this point just to make a perfect smiley face. Well done!

Edit: Sorry, I'm just easily amused. Don't mind me.

Re: 67. Loons (3k) vs. Shaddy(1d)

Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 2:26 pm
by Loons
Edit; I assume my trigger is accepted. I kinda don't like them - though they do speed the game past ataris, I always feel like I'm tipping my hand. Anyway, unlike my last couple moves, I am quite happy with 2. I feel it has three good purposes; it is helping my only weak group live, it justifies my earlier reducing move, and it damages his tengen stone. Initially, I was going to attach underneath his tengen stone, but I felt that made my earlier reducing move a liability rather than asset, and also gave him more local forcing moves. Of course, I have a hard time predicting his response now...


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . X O . . X X O X O O . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . O . , . . X O X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . O . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . W . . . . . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X O . . . . . O X O . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . X O O O O O X O O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . X X X . X X X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Trigger:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . X O . . X X O X O O . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . O . , . . X O X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . O . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . W . . . . . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X O . . . . . O X O . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . 1 X O O O O O X O O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . X X X . X X X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Re: 67. Loons (3k) vs. Shaddy(1d)

Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 2:32 pm
by Shaddy
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . X O . . X X O X O O . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . O . , . . X O X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . O . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . 5 . . . . . . . 2 X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O 4 O . . . . . 1 X O . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . 6 X O O O O O X O 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . X X X . X X X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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