Re: The Reign of Ke Jie
Posted: Sun May 14, 2017 3:34 am
Today pretty impressive win from ke jie. The 3rd in a row. No need to worry about him .
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The Reign of Ke Jie
Page 5 of 23
Re: The Reign of Ke Jie
Posted: Sun May 14, 2017 4:01 am
It seems lately he likes to go in the 3-3 early.
Re: The Reign of Ke Jie
Posted: Tue May 16, 2017 5:24 am
He's at it again, getting earlier and earlier with each round of the Chinese league!
For round 7 will we see below?! I feel like we could start a thread: Tygem troll or Ke Jie, can you spot the difference?
For round 7 will we see below?! I feel like we could start a thread: Tygem troll or Ke Jie, can you spot the difference?
Re: The Reign of Ke Jie
Posted: Tue May 16, 2017 5:38 am
Is there any implication to 4-4s in the opening? Are they decreasing in relative preference to e.g., 4-3?
Re: The Reign of Ke Jie
Posted: Tue May 16, 2017 8:13 am
I've not noticed, but then "playing 4-4s only 55% of the time instead of 65% of the time" is far less noticeable when idling watching the latest pro games than these early 3-3s are. I don't know if Ke Jie thinks these early 3-3s are the best move, or maybe he's just experimenting (perhaps preparing for the AlphaGo match). He's so strong that he could be winning these games in spite of rather than because of them. But it's very interesting that he considers them playable enough to use in serious matches (though Chinese league is a non-knockout team event so less personal cash/pride on the line than an individual tournament, it will be interesting to see if he uses them in e.g. the ENN Cup final). If you told me 2 years ago that the top pro in the world would be invading at 3-3 on move 6 in a serious tournament game because of a bot I'd have been incredulous.uPWarrior wrote:Is there any implication to 4-4s in the opening? Are they decreasing in relative preference to e.g., 4-3?
Re: The Reign of Ke Jie
Posted: Tue May 16, 2017 8:34 am
Of course. Perhaps someone proficient with pattern searching software could give us figures for the number of 4-4s played in the past few months compared to pre-alphago. Maybe nothing changed.Uberdude wrote: I've not noticed, but then "playing 4-4s only 55% of the time instead of 65% of the time" is far less noticeable when idling watching the latest pro games than these early 3-3s are.
Re: The Reign of Ke Jie
Posted: Tue May 16, 2017 9:46 am
I realise it's pissing in the wind, but I say again: none of this is really new.
Here's Hayashi Yutaro playing an early 3-3 in the 1928 Oteai.
There are other examples. Here's an amusimng one (although by transposition) from 1967 between the two Fujisawas.
Zhou Lanyu played a rather stunning example against Guo Bailing around 1650.
Here's Hayashi Yutaro playing an early 3-3 in the 1928 Oteai.
There are other examples. Here's an amusimng one (although by transposition) from 1967 between the two Fujisawas.
Zhou Lanyu played a rather stunning example against Guo Bailing around 1650.
Re: The Reign of Ke Jie
Posted: Tue May 16, 2017 6:03 pm
It's the same move, but I think it's a different (and new) kind of idea. In the first example, White is planning on playing the joseki out inc. the 2nd line hane and pressing the 3-4 stone on the side Black blocks in order to reduce the influence of the wall. This idea has been around for a long time, but AlphaGo's idea is that Black will eventually owe a move on that wall, i.e. it's thin, and this, IME, is genuinely new (of course, I haven't seen nearly as many games as you have!)John Fairbairn wrote:I realise it's pissing in the wind, but I say again: none of this is really new.
Here's Hayashi Yutaro playing an early 3-3 in the 1928 Oteai.
There are other examples. Here's an amusimng one (although by transposition) from 1967 between the two Fujisawas.
Zhou Lanyu played a rather stunning example against Guo Bailing around 1650.
Re: The Reign of Ke Jie
Posted: Sun May 21, 2017 3:48 am
Viktor Lin (6d from Austria) wrote a nice article on the EGF site about these early 3-3s, with an example from Li Zhe before Ke Jie started doing it:
[2017-04-27] 19th Chinese City League A, round 2
Li Zhe 6p (Black) vs. Li Xuanhao 6p (White) B+R
[2017-04-27] 19th Chinese City League A, round 2
Li Zhe 6p (Black) vs. Li Xuanhao 6p (White) B+R
Re: The Reign of Ke Jie
Posted: Sun May 21, 2017 4:43 am
Viktor Lin's article is wrong. The record for the earliest to play the 3-3 in an official game is not Ke-Li Qincheng (move 6 this May), but - in both senses - Han Chong-chin vs Kim Seung-ryong on move 5 in the Maxim Cup this January.
Han too was experimenting with the new outside strategy. But his example is much more remarkable because he did it TWICE in the same game (the second case was on move 13). But he lost by 2.5.
Han too was experimenting with the new outside strategy. But his example is much more remarkable because he did it TWICE in the same game (the second case was on move 13). But he lost by 2.5.
Re: The Reign of Ke Jie
Posted: Tue May 23, 2017 8:58 am
What do we think of Ke Jie's early 33 invasion against AlphaGo? Full game at viewtopic.php?p=219631#p219631.
Looking over the game, I lean towards thinking White still got what he wanted, getting lots of compensation for letting Black settle near his wall, but I'm too weak to know.
Looking over the game, I lean towards thinking White still got what he wanted, getting lots of compensation for letting Black settle near his wall, but I'm too weak to know.
Re: The Reign of Ke Jie
Posted: Tue May 23, 2017 9:40 am
Not as bad for black as we used to think the early 3-3 was, but not great for him either, nor as good as for those other times he used it against humans and then wedged and the wall wondered about its eyes. I only skipped around the Myungwan Kim stream, but I think he said he didn't like it and Ke Jie should just have played normally.hyperpape wrote:What do we think of Ke Jie's early 33 invasion against AlphaGo?
Re: The Reign of Ke Jie
Posted: Tue May 23, 2017 10:23 am
It might not have been the best idea to simply copy one of another player's "typical" moves in a game against this player, not really knowing WHY (and WHEN) she chooses that move.Uberdude wrote: Not as bad for black as we used to think the early 3-3 was, but not great for him either, nor as good as for those other times he used it against humans and then wedged and the wall wondered about its eyes. I only skipped around the Myungwan Kim stream, but I think he said he didn't like it and Ke Jie should just have played normally.
Re: The Reign of Ke Jie
Posted: Tue May 23, 2017 11:55 am
I read Viktor Lin's writeup about new ideas related to the 3-3 point (which was very well written, I might add).Uberdude wrote:Not as bad for black as we used to think the early 3-3 was, but not great for him either, nor as good as for those other times he used it against humans and then wedged and the wall wondered about its eyes. I only skipped around the Myungwan Kim stream, but I think he said he didn't like it and Ke Jie should just have played normally.hyperpape wrote:What do we think of Ke Jie's early 33 invasion against AlphaGo?
One of the innovations made by AlphaGo, as I understand from the article, was the fact that AlphaGo often omits the
exchange, below, in the typical variation, which makes white stronger on the bottom:Black has two benefits outside of getting the territory:
1.) White's wall, while influence, can still be attacked later - white hasn't been strengthened on the bottom.
2.) Black gets sente.
In the game against Ke Jie, yesterday, though, AlphaGo threw in the knight's move:
This kind of messes up the idea that I thought Viktor was explaining.
Option 1: Black gives up sente, which is not as good.
Option 2: Like in the game, black got sente, but ended up giving white a nice shape: Compared to the earlier example: White seems thicker and harder to attack.
Is the early 3-3 such a great move, given white's knight's move response? I guess AlphaGo played it, so maybe it thinks it's even?
Re: The Reign of Ke Jie
Posted: Tue May 23, 2017 4:08 pm
Perhaps AlphaGo has taught us that in response to an early 3-3 invasion, hane at the head of two stones is not as good as the keima. 