E4-LZContinuation.jpg (365.76 KiB) Viewed 16327 times
F3 : 21.6% with 16k playouts :
F3 continuation by LZ
F3-LZContinuation.jpg (346.45 KiB) Viewed 16327 times
B3 : 20.7% with 4.7k playouts :
B3 continuation by LZ
B3-LZContinuation.jpg (349.91 KiB) Viewed 16327 times
G3 and E3 get less than 20 playouts (so, not really seriously considered), with sub 20% winrate each
Other options are to tenuki, but with kinda low playouts (lower than B3).
Edit : added the "best" continuation that LZ plan for each of these moves
Re: dutchie's journal
Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 1:21 pm
by Uberdude
Nice to see LZ approves of my f3 in response to white b3
Re: dutchie's journal
Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 1:31 pm
by Tryss
It's even the only move it consider (over 65k playout for it, while the others are all under 500)
Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 2:37 pm
by EdLee
Hi Tryss,
Thank you.
Noob question: is there a significance between the 40k (E4) v. 16k (F3) playouts ? Their winrates are very close ( 21.3% & 21.6% ),
but the playouts are quite different ?
Is it Lizzie ? Very pretty interface.
Just curious: what's LZ's winrate for , given 2-stones ?
Does 's winrate start from ~0% and climb up to ~20% by ?
Or is it the opposite ? 's winrate starts out higher than 20% at ( but under 50%, obviously ), and drops to ~20% by ?
Re: dutchie's journal
Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:15 pm
by Tryss
Before , LZ gives white around 21% winrate, so there is no real winrate change by . Note that this evaluation is with 7.5 komi for white .
For the playouts, I'm pretty sure the difference is noise (due to the randomness of the tree exploration). I just did another run, and the results were :
F3 : 21.4% winrate with 42k playouts
E4 : 21.0% winrate with 33k playouts
B3 : 20.5% winrate with 8k playouts
So while last time LZ would have played E4, this time it would have played F3.
(I spend a little more playouts here, but the result would have been the same if I stopped a little earlier : F3 took the lead early this time)
And yes, this is lizzie
Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 4:29 pm
by EdLee
Tryss, Thank you.
Re: dutchie's journal
Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 5:45 am
by dutchie
Huh, interesting analysis. I'm surprised W is down to only ~20% winrate after less that 20 moves!
Re: dutchie's journal
Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 5:58 am
by Bill Spight
dutchie wrote:Huh, interesting analysis. I'm surprised W is down to only ~20% winrate after less that 20 moves!
EdLee wrote:Just curious: what's LZ's winrate for , given 2-stones ?
Tryss wrote:Before , LZ gives white around 21% winrate, so there is no real winrate change by . Note that this evaluation is with 7.5 komi for white .
Re: dutchie's journal
Posted: Wed Aug 22, 2018 10:39 am
by dutchie
Again it's been too long. I've played (and lost) a couple tonight. One was a fun close fight that I ended up losing by 22.5. I'll attach it in case anyone is interested and wants to open up the SGF themselves for any comments, but I reviewed it with my opponent and I'm much more curious about the second game, where I ended up with a wall across the centre and then messed up attacks (kills?) on two invading groups. I went through and added some thoughts of my own, but the opening was a little weird as well as messing up the fights in the midgame.
Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2018 3:16 am
by EdLee
Hi dutchie,
human.
slow.
human:
slow, small.
( The game was B to lose after here. )
, how about kick-pincer combo ?
Does LZ like o17 area ?
What does LZ think of this ?
What does LZ think about @ F9 directly ?
( foundation shapes study... )
( + ), ( + ) Foundation shapes study .
Instead of these 4 moves, imagine just 1 move around o17 area.
( Variation in SGF here still not sensing global perspective. )
note in SGF, "...make shape in the middle" --
Still missing global perspective, what mistakes led B to this position,
how to handle these stones.
( + ) Hmm. Note in SGF, "No mindless atari" is good;
but insufficient here. ( emphasis on mindless, not atari. )
Problem here is knowledge gaps in foundation shapes.
EdLee wrote: slow, small.
( The game was B to lose after here. )
After , LZ gives white around 30% winrate
, how about kick-pincer combo ?
LZ choice. Interesting note : her favorite pincer after the kick is D11. This move is never on my radar, so I learned something new here. (but other pincers seems playable)
Does LZ like o17 area ?
LZ choice too
What does LZ think of this ?
-11% winrate, black advantage is mostly gone (black has now 53% winrate)
What does LZ think about @ L9 directly ?
( foundation shapes study... )
You mean D9? (L9 is in the middle of the board). If so, less bad, but LZ favorite move is the D8 kosumi
The elephant eye at E11 feels like a serious mistake. I mean, LZ can manage to get an ok result from it, but the knight move at E10 or the 1 space jump at E9 feels much less error prone.
After 37, black winrate is down to 22%, a loss of over 40% winrate compared to the situation after
Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2018 4:55 am
by EdLee
Hi Tryss,
Thanks.
favorite pincer after the kick is D11. This move is never on my radar
Yea, D11 quite natural. Human reasoning: D12 too close to
W's iron pillar, so pull back to D11 ( but I don't know bot reasoning ).
You mean D9? but LZ favorite move is the D8 kosumi
Thanks; typo: I meant F9 knight's. D8 kosumi, thanks.
[cap] at E11 feels like a serious mistake.
@dutchie: LZ's 'hint' to you: what was your plan for at E11 ? You're not building a huge moyo. Just take a big point ( O17 area ) and keep the lead.
After , black winrate is down to 22%, a loss of over 40% winrate compared to the situation after
@dutchie, LZ's lesson for you (thanks to Tryss): how to lose the game in 8 moves...
Re: dutchie's journal
Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2018 6:29 am
by dutchie
Thank you folks, a lot to think about. I honestly completely forgot that kick/pincer moves even existed, Direction of play and whole board thinking are so important!
Posted: Sat Aug 25, 2018 10:49 pm
by EdLee
Hi Tryss,
Speaking of pincer...
No connection to dutchie's game.
But in case you're still reading this thread, a curious question:
, given 2-stones ?
's winrate start from ~0% and climb up to ~20% by 
?
human.
slow.
human:
slow, small.
, 
how about kick-pincer combo ?
What does LZ think of this ?
What does LZ think about 
)
) Foundation shapes study 
note in SGF, "...make shape in the middle" --
+ 
) Hmm. Note in SGF, "No 
P16. Foundation shapes study 