Life In 19x19

Posted: **Mon Aug 23, 2010 11:32 am**

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm12 Move 12 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . . | $$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . X . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . X . O . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

freegame is right again.

I will try not to do much quoting from the commentary for fear of spoilers, but I will say that it was thought that White should have approached from the left side instead of the right, because then a would work well with his side stone; as freegame points out, this is not so true on the left side.

Posted: **Mon Aug 23, 2010 11:32 am**

My thoughts for the next move:

Posted: **Mon Aug 23, 2010 11:36 am**

Oops, dfan posted just before me...

Posted: **Mon Aug 23, 2010 11:38 am**

I agree, Peter. It seems like that is huge for black, and forces white to overconcentrate itself in that corner or risk invasion. After white's reinforcement might be a better time for black to support the bottom group. What would be good to help the bottom, something like K5?

Posted: **Mon Aug 23, 2010 3:26 pm**

K5 looks great to me: it adds some stability and moves the stones into the center, and it would help back up a reduction/invasion of the right side. It might concede too much in the lower left corner, but I like the pacing of this move.

Posted: **Mon Aug 23, 2010 5:16 pm**

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm12 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 1 . . . . . 4 . 5 . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . X . c . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . . b . . X . O . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I'm not happy with :b15:

because white's natural response of :w16:

is just too convenient for white to start making big territory on the right, and 'a' - or even 'b' - is still open. If 13 and 14 are indeed played, white is overconcentrated, but it can be used to start fights with invasions around 'b' or 'c'.

So I like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm12 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . X . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O . 4 . . . . X . O . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Posted: **Mon Aug 23, 2010 7:18 pm**

I don't think white will play :w14:

if black plays :b13:

. I could be wrong, but it feels too passive. One of these feel better to me:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm13 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . O , 2 . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . X . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . X . O . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This is more active to target the bad aji at 'a'.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm13 Move 13 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . X . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . 2 . X . O . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Or attack black somehow. Note that white has the ladder in both directions. I'm not sure if this is the proper way or not though.

Posted: **Tue Aug 24, 2010 12:56 am**

I find this idea very exciting and I hope I'll learn a lot while asking for your indulgence on my errors...

This should be almost joseki: black gets a lot of influence on the center while keeping white on the edges...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm11 Move 11 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . W , b . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . . | $$ | . . . 1 3 . 7 . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O 2 . . . . . X . O . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

There's an obvious attack point at b and White's move 18 at a is very big; the problem I can see with this, though: if white plays first at a, black doesn't have a great continuation and his influence isn't worth so much anymore... Also, 17 should be in H4 by joseki, but I think the presence of K3 and M3 allow for this variation...

Another possibility in the same variation could be

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm11 Move 11 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . W , b . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . . | $$ | . . . 1 3 9 . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O 2 . 8 7 . . X . O . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This looks better for black despite the cutting point at G4...

In both cases, though, a black move at b puts pressure on the O stone which gets caught between that group and the upper shimari... Not that white cannot settle that stone by extending to C13 or B8, but then white's possition would be really low all over the board (except the probable move at Q5)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm11 Move 11 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 . . . . . . b . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . 1 . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . . 3 . . X . O . a . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This settles black on the lower side while pressing white low on the left... There's an open skirt but black should be able to deal with it, and there's the pincer at a or the jump at b to further develop that part of the board...

There are other possibilities I have thought of, but they all look even sillier... ^_^

Edit: corrected some comments on the diagrams... :-/

Posted: **Tue Aug 24, 2010 1:44 am**

@Joaz: Really?? This looks mighty scary to me:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm12 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . X . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O . 4 . . 5 . X . O . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

It's such a classic shape weak point. I prefer K5 too, and although I agree it risks a concerning position for White on the right, I think your alternative is just too thin for me.

Posted: **Tue Aug 24, 2010 6:35 am**

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm13 ACTUAL GAME: Move 13 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . X . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O 1 . . . . . X . O . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Posted: **Tue Aug 24, 2010 8:21 am**

So can we infer that black does not like C12 immediately because it provokes white to become too strong? And that black wants to resolve the L+D issues in the south before playing C12?

Posted: **Tue Aug 24, 2010 9:11 am**

Maybe this now?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 1 . X . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O X 2 . . . . X . O . . . . O . . | $$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Posted: **Tue Aug 24, 2010 9:36 am**

My guess for the next moves is the same as Dusk Eagle's suggestion.

my thoughts:

Posted: **Tue Aug 24, 2010 10:34 am**

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm14 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . X . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O X 1 . . . . X . O . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

this would be my first instinct. i am not sure if it works but...something to think about.

Posted: **Tue Aug 24, 2010 12:40 pm**

I had thought about the move Magicwand showed, but I didn't think it was quite as good. Maybe I rejected it too quickly, but I'm still sticking with my prediction above.

Life In 19x19

Prokovich game

Re: Prokovich game

Re: Prokovich game

Re: Prokovich game

Re: Prokovich game

Re: Prokovich game

Re: Prokovich game

Re: Prokovich game

Re: Prokovich game

Re: Prokovich game

Re: Prokovich game

Re: Prokovich game

Re: Prokovich game

Re: Prokovich game

Re: Prokovich game

Re: Prokovich game