LeelaZero adventures on Fox

Uberdude · Post by **Uberdude** » Sat Dec 01, 2018 4:55 am

Played a game as Elf v1 against another person using a bot, an Elf v1 v0 mix on 1050Ti. There was an interesting moment at move 65 where my Elf thought it was doing well and winrate spiked up to >60% but then quickly fell because it had missed a vital ladder that meant it couldn't blockade and kill the white group (see variation on move 71 for ladder). Later a big group of mine died.

Uberdude · Post by **Uberdude** » Tue Dec 11, 2018 11:11 pm

Although it's been interesting playing as LZ on Fox, I've been unsuccessful in my aim of seeing how strong LZ is on my moderate hardware vs pros. I don't recall playing any confirmed pros to date, and most opponents at 9d are probably bots too. There may be a selection bias here in that many humans don't want to play me with my obvious bot name, but I've also heard the pros online tend to know each others' username and only play each other. So there could be quite isolated pools of players. Also I've seen some pro accounts (wonfun = Won Seongjin I think) with not particularly great win ratios, whilst most of the bots I've played have good ratios so whilst this could mean the bot accounts are stronger than a top pro like Won if they don't play each other you can't really say.

Anyway, today I played a game against Chinese chenyuch with a p badge so I think that means a confirmed pro (I couldn't find a pro called Chen Yu Ch??? though) with 125 W 157L. LZ beat him easily (resign at 146): a steady decline in winrate where probably more than half of his moves which weren't obvious to me as a mid dan amateur were viewed by LZ 191 as a mistake. Biggest mistake was in the first fight at top right: although he killed the cutting stones LZ got a nice force on the outside at n13 (with later squeeze very handy in another fight, in fact LZ thinks m14 good shape defence might be better at o14 to avoid this) and could still make a gote life in the corner using the aji (o18 should be q17 to avoid this). Once the 20s byo-yomi started LZ also played a few moves which with more time it realised were slight mistakes (but 90.5% is not much worse than 90.8) though I did do a little of promising blue circle promotion. Mainline is the Fox game, he resigned at 146, the variations are me following Ke Jie vs Chen Yaoye and Park Junghwan vs Mi Yuting in Chinese league.

: chenyuch.PNG (148.31 KiB) Viewed 20344 times

Uberdude · Post by **Uberdude** » Fri Dec 14, 2018 1:08 am

Checking the user info of chenyuch I see it says he is 2p with a name 季建宇 = Ji Jianyu but I can't find that name in rating lists.

John Fairbairn · Post by **John Fairbairn** » Fri Dec 14, 2018 3:02 am

It looks like you may be misreading the name. At least there is a 李建宇 Li Jianyu 2-dan, from Cangzhou, born 1990. He was a late (under-25) qualifier as a pro and is not very active - I only have a couple of his games.

Uberdude · Post by **Uberdude** » Fri Dec 14, 2018 3:25 am

Thanks John, I was using an online OCR tool plus google translate! I see Li Jianyu in https://senseis.xmp.net/?ChineseProRatings20130430 at #238 of 320 with 2230, with Zhao Baolong (of EGF fame) at 175 with 2277 and the top 10 at 2600+.

Uberdude · Post by **Uberdude** » Sun Dec 16, 2018 3:29 am

Played a game with the new #195 network. It was the first game in a long time that LZ had a ladder delusion (fast game at 15s a move so averaging about 3k playouts, needs 11k to realise ladder is bad and not play n10 atari but p12 better). LZ thought it recovered, with the lead changing hands a few times (though as white on Fox has 1 less komi than LZ assumes) but lost by 1.5 in the end.

: 195 ladder delusion.PNG (227.48 KiB) Viewed 20112 times

Uberdude · Post by **Uberdude** » Thu Dec 27, 2018 11:53 pm

Someone played mirror go as white against me for the first time. LZ (I used the super trained 157 network 9229) handled it ok in the end, making a centre fight in which tengen meant it won a semeai. I didn't help it (e.g. I looked at mainlines and checked to see if it was tring to make double ladder and wouldn't have stopped it if it was going to do something dumb), though I did give it 2 byoyomis when then winrate briefly dropped below 50% around move 70: its instinct was to capture the top white stones, but then white's komi is helpful, after 25 seconds or so it decided saving the stones was better which makes sense as then sente/tengen becomes valuable.

ez4u · Post by **ez4u** » Fri Dec 28, 2018 12:43 am

If you look at the analysis, was LZ looking at White continuing to mirror Black or was it calculating based on White choosing other "better" alternatives on each play?

Uberdude · Post by **Uberdude** » Fri Dec 28, 2018 3:46 am

Sometimes LZ expected the mirror move, but generally not. I noticed that when there were 2 hot areas of the board (as often with mirroring) it tended to expect play to continue in the area of the previous move. I did sometimes play his expected mirror move before he played it to give LZ more than the 15 second overtime to think.

Bill Spight · Post by **Bill Spight** » Fri Dec 28, 2018 8:27 am

Uberdude wrote:Sometimes LZ expected the mirror move, but generally not. I noticed that when there were 2 hot areas of the board (as often with mirroring) it tended to expect play to continue in the area of the previous move.

Mirror go is an effective strategy if the temperature drops below 2 x komi, something that tends to happen as the board fills up. So the player being mirrored needs to keep the game exciting. If LZ's last play raised the local temperature, then it would make sense for the opponent to reply locally. Perhaps that is what was happening.

I did sometimes play his expected mirror move before he played it to give LZ more than the 15 second overtime to think.

Naughty, naughty!

lightvector · Post by **lightvector** » Fri Dec 28, 2018 8:02 pm

I've always had it in the back of my todo list to test a little hack, where if the opponent has been mirroring for a while, adjust the policy net to put, say, an extra 20% of its probability mass on the mirroring move for the opponent in addition what it would have normally (taking that mass equally from all moves). After all, supposedly the policy net is as one of its functions supposed to be predicting what move will be played, and predicting that they will mirror has got to be a pretty good prediction...

Or more mechanically, it should make the MCTS search prefer to go a little deeper down lines where the opponent continues to mirror, and to make it so that the average winrates at interior nodes in the tree are biased just a little towards the winrates that would happen if opponent will play the mirror response rather than what the policy net would ordinarily predict. In particular, this should make the search "try" to slightly favor lines where it thinks the opponent continuing to mirror is extra-bad for the opponent, and also to more carefully read those lines.

Will get around to it at some point, once my experimental bot is more developed in other more-important ways...

Uberdude · Post by **Uberdude** » Sun Dec 30, 2018 10:17 am

A brief interlude for a LeelaZero adventure on KGS. I played with the super 157 15-block network 9229 against latest 40-block #197 used by petgo3 account on KGS. I have a i3-8100 with 1060 3GB GPU, it has "i7-7700HQ, Nvidea GTX 1060" so pretty similar, time setting was 5m + 10x20s, so this was a battle of a stronger network with fewer playouts vs a weaker network with more playouts at time parity and pretty much hardware parity too. My LZ won by resign, despite me making a -7% misclick (h10 should g10) in a middlegame fight. petgo's game-deciding blunder was m18 atari which makes c18 work as k17 is now black atari so f17 pull-out works, I guess it just didn't have enough playouts to see that. I was getting really nice playout numbers with this shallower half-precision network, often 30k+ when expected sequences happened whereas I get just ~3k when using a 40-block network at similar time settings.

: vs petgo.PNG (140.19 KiB) Viewed 19739 times

splee99 · Post by **splee99** » Sun Dec 30, 2018 10:02 pm

Note that Petgo3 sometimes uses as low as 1k playouts per move (randomly sampled at KGS), while at move 80, the 157a used 120k playouts per move. So this win of 157a should be expected.

Uberdude · Post by **Uberdude** » Mon Dec 31, 2018 1:51 am

Had a strange interaction with some Chinese guy today, probably using a bot. When he asked what GPU I used and I replied 1060 he accused me of lying and was very insistent on it. I presume he couldn't believe a 1060 rather than a stronger GPU like a 1080 could be 9d or have my win stats (I lost the game, so it's not like I beat his stronger GPU with my weaker). Here's the Chinese chat in case google translate lost something. Weird, is it so surprising a 1060 can be 9d? I didn't surprise me.

Uberdude · Post by **Uberdude** » Tue Jan 01, 2019 2:35 am

This game was interesting, demonstrated the importance of getting the timing of a peep wrong. h13 peep would have been a good at move 57, but he played it at move 59 after white had defended with the f10 kosumi and it lost 15%. This kind of kosumi after a knight move jump is a good solid shape to learn and I thought this was defending the g12 weakness whilst reaching out to g7 (with bonus of d10 followup into left side), but it also means the h13 peep becomes resistable with j12 attachment as then it ends up perfectly played to defend the g10 cut when you play the obvious sequence trying to break out (see variation).

Life In 19x19

LeelaZero adventures on Fox

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