Page 5 of 10
Posted: Sat Sep 07, 2019 1:49 am
by EdLee
@Jika:
I had the strong feeling I have not learned anything from them.
This is
possible , but unlikely.
My stones were killed, killed, captured, killed, and it went so fast I could not see why.
We can't easily scan your brain while you play Go to visually see whether your neural structures have changed since before you started Go. We must wait and see.
If 12 months and 500 games have passed and you remain at the same level as when you started Go, then your suspicion is correct: you didn't learn much from the 500 games.
We'll see.
Re: Jika vs Kirby
Posted: Sat Sep 07, 2019 3:43 am
by Bill Spight
@ Jika:
All I can say is, your moves that I applauded were
not, repeat, not beginner moves.
Re: Jika vs Kirby
Posted: Sat Sep 07, 2019 10:40 am
by Jika
$$Wcm11
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm11
Other moves I've considered:
$$Wcm11
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm11
Blocking, but my stone loses a liberty too.
$$Wcm11
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm11
Both F15 or H15.
I want to say "Don't cut off my D4 so easily", but pushing from there would be an invite to take the side, wouldn't it?
I also considered leaving some (well, a lot of) territory to Kirby, like "OK, play there, but I will play elsewhere, like Q17). But, first, I don't think it is a good idea to ignore Kirby (on the other hand, he might want me to follow him like walking a dog). Second, he might maybe place a second stone there and then follow me to attend to the upper left later.
Now I've spent 5 minutes on choosing the move and 8 minutes on posting.
Should I have spent more?
Re: Jika vs Kirby
Posted: Sat Sep 07, 2019 12:19 pm
by Bill Spight
My thoughts about
, before Jika played.
Anyone can take a look.
$$Wcm11
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm11
When I was learning go, I would have chosen the simple jump from the corner (joseki). I would have been willing to sacrifice the
stone, if necessary.
$$Wcm11
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm11
When I got stronger, I would have chosen this jump, cutting a couple of sector lines and attacking both sides. Banzai!
$$Wcm11
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm11
Today, for a rank beginner I might suggest this kosumi, securing the corner and planning to sacrifice the
stone. I would look forward to the slide at
a or the underneath attachment at
b .
Out of curiosity I took a look at
Okigo Jizai . OC, this particular position does not occur in it, but Hattori showed how to attack, and might well have recommended this play.
$$Wcm11 White 13 not shown.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm11 White 13 not shown. threatens
. If
,
makes a nice base in sente.
$$Bcm14 White 13 not shown. Bad for White.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm14 White 13 not shown. Bad for White.
If White tries to capture
with
-
,
-
rips White to shreds.
$$Wcm11
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm11
If White prevents the underneath attachment, Hattori might try
, threatening to play at
a . If now White prevents that play,
attacks the
stone.
@ Jika: With practice your time to make diagrams should decrease.
Posted: Sat Sep 07, 2019 10:32 pm
by EdLee
@Jika:
I've spent 5 minutes on choosing the move...
I'll answer your question indirectly:
Your candidates ( including the actual game move
):
$$Wm11
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wm11Post #64's candidates:
$$Wm11
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wm11
Questions for you:
(a) How many of your candidates
contact ( for this question, a diagonal hit is contact ) ? Click Show for the answer:
4. All your candidates
contact ; 100%.
(b) How many of Post64's candidates touch
?
Zero. None of the 3 candidates touches
; 0%
(c) If you had spent another 10 minutes, 1 hour, or 1 week,
would you have asked yourself this question:
"To touch or
not to touch
--
why does it matter ? "
Re: Jika vs Kirby
Posted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 12:05 am
by Jika
Thank you!
@Bill, Ed: I would not have chosen your moves after minutes.
Maybe I should not have spent my time talking about bicycles but revisit my move 12 the next day before I played it:
I think for me (this is my first 19x19) the idea of cutting off territory / securing a corner is not so familiar.
I had the strategy to somehow connect stones (in 1 move).
But maybe the next day my mood had changed from "connect them all" to "play secure". I can't tell.
I see your suggestions are making much more sense.
I don't understand the more complicated fights Bill posted, I often don't understand why a move "threatens to play at a" (because I would not have known that playing at "a" would be desirable, or why).
@Ed: I've looked up (Sabaki) what other moves I considered there:
J13, J14.
$$Wcm11
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm11
So, those would have been better, at least J14?
I played around with them in Sabaki as variants, but - obviously - did not continue considering them.
So, it would have been safer and made more sense to stay away from Kirby's stone. I hope I'll remember!
Posted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 1:11 am
by EdLee
@Jika
...at least J14?
For future reference: there are strengths and weaknesses in your knight's move J14:
$$B
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$BThis takes some study and experience to understand.
Comparison: the 1-space jump has
different strengths and weaknesses:
$$B
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$BThis
also takes time and effort to digest.
Posted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 1:21 am
by EdLee
@Jika:
So, it would have been safer and made more sense to stay away from Kirby's stone. I hope I'll remember!
It'll take some time, experience, and effort before the deeper meanings of post64's candidates become more clear to you.
My suggestion: be careful how you reached certain conclusions, like those quoted above.
Hint:
Re: Jika vs Kirby
Posted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 1:49 am
by Jika
Re: Jika vs Kirby
Posted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 2:56 am
by Bill Spight
To butt into Jika and Ed's colloquy:
Re: Jika vs Kirby
Posted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 5:11 pm
by Kirby
$$Wcm11
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm11
I debated about playing where I did, and playing here:
$$Wcm11
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm11
The initial point of dividing black and white was to make black choose a side:
$$Wcm11
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm11
Like if black jumps at 'a', I can take advantage on the 'b' area with a double-approach type scenario. But if black defends at 'b', then I can aim to attack the stone on the top middle - it won't be big profit, but it's something in a 9-stone game.
So on one hand, Jika's move responds to help the top stone, so I could consider the double approach. But there are a couple of reasons to just answer like I did:
1. If we think about the game as a sequence of exchanges, I'm pretty sure the last white/black exchange gave me a small benefit - I got stronger in the 9-stone handicap game, and the knight's slide doesn't help the black group all that much (it helps a little bit).
2. If I double approach, I'm not really putting black under much pressure. Black can always slide under then:
$$Wc
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wc
Black might not do this, but it gives black an easy way out.
So, I'll just answer Jika's last move, and treat it as a thank you exchange.
Re: Jika vs Kirby
Posted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 11:32 pm
by Jika
Hm, bad news for me: My sabaki board (where I try variants) had somehow an additional black stone in a different position.
$$Wcm11
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm11
I'm trying to give my stone more liberties.
I think Kirby wants to get the upper left (and will), only, how far will he come towards the middle/right? Do I want to sacrifice the bumped stone?
Other things I've considered:
$$Wcm11
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm11
More liberties, but easier to cut off?
$$Wcm11
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm11
Blocking?
$$Wcm11
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm11
Tries to bite off (too) much towards the centre?
$$Wcm11
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm11
Because my imagined stone was there!
Posted: Mon Sep 09, 2019 1:37 am
by EdLee
@ Jika:
I'm trying to give my stone more liberties.
Let's count liberties for
and
:
$$Wm11 ( :black: 7; :white: 5 ); Net = ( :black: +2 )
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wm11 ( :black: 7; :white: 5 ); Net = ( :black: +2 )$$B ( :black: 7; :white: 4 ); Net = ( :black: +3 )
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$B ( :black: 7; :white: 4 ); Net = ( :black: +3 )Your 'drop' candidate:
$$Wm11 ( :black: 9; :white: 5 ); Net = ( :black: +4 )
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wm11 ( :black: 9; :white: 5 ); Net = ( :black: +4 )
Now, let's look at points,
very selectively :
$$Wm11 Game move: 5 points.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wm11 Game move: 5 points.$$B Push-up: 6 points
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$B Push-up: 6 pointsYour 'drop' candidate:
$$Wm11 Drop: 6 points
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wm11 Drop: 6 points
Re: Jika vs Kirby
Posted: Mon Sep 09, 2019 9:27 am
by Kirby
$$Wcm11
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm11
Jika's move is not what I expected. I expected this:
$$Wcm11
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm11
It doesn't mean that Jika's move is not having value. But a lot of time, people might play as above, because it puts more pressure on the white stones. If white ignores, black is putting a lot of pressure on what - there's even that proverb about playing at the head of two stones:
$$Wcm11 if white ignores
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm11 if white ignores
So as a result, white feels inclined to answer - black keeps the initiative, because white is pressured:
$$Wcm11
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm11
Since white is inclined to answer, black has strengthened the stones, and is now free to make a decision - do I continue locally, or play somewhere else? Black can think about it and come up with a strategy.
But given the game move:
$$Wcm11
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm11
My white stones have lots of liberties and are not in as much immediate danger. So I have options to consider a different line.
So I decided to play somewhere else - the double approach.
Re: Jika vs Kirby
Posted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 11:10 pm
by Jika
$$Wcm11
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm11
I've decided not to react to Kirby's move because I thought that my two groups there (upper line) are not really connected (were they?) and would be easy to separate.
I assume Kirby wants to extend down from the upper left corner as far as possible, taking the left side.
If he has the left and then separates my two groups I would not like it.
So, my basic decision seemed to be "cause trouble on the left side or play a connecting move along the upper side?".
Other moves I've considered:
$$Wcm11
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm11
This was my alternative move there, closer to my left group.
$$Wcm11
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm11
Direct bump, "you shall not pass!".
$$Wcm11
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm11
Indirect?
$$Wcm11
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm11
Testing the nice white bend a bit.
Threatening to disconnect white stones.
I like this move a lot, but I think it is daring too.
Someone wrote (Ed?) that connecting one's stones is aim number one, while trying to disconnect the opponents is number two.
So, basically, was there any need to play a "connecting" move between my two?
I'm taking a high cost to do so.
We'll see. 
, before Jika played. 
stone, if necessary. 
. If 
, 
makes a nice base in sente.
, 
- 
rips White to shreds. 
stone. 
and 
: