Teamovitch #1

KGS 4 kyu · Post by **fwiffo** » Thu Oct 28, 2010 9:25 am

Black internal discussion:

topazg · Post by **topazg** » Thu Oct 28, 2010 10:00 am

For observers:

I suspect strongly Black will approach in the top left. If so, the following are what I'm aiming for:

3-3 approach

EDIT: I think this is not the best choice for Black.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm7 Move 7 - B:0 - W:0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . 5 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 . 2 6 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . 3 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 7 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm7 Move 17 - B:0 - W:0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X 3 O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 1 2 . . . . , . . . . . B . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 4 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

It gives us the extension we want to our marked White stone, superb outside influence, destroys Black's hopes of powerful extensions from the lower left shimari, and makes the influential nature of the top right 4-4 rather hard to utilise. 6/10

5-3 approach

Pretty rare, and I think good for White. Slightly better for White than the last one.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm7 Move 7 - B:0 - W:0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 . 1 . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . 5 . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 6 . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

The top is still unsettled for Black, White's expansion is going acording to plan on the right hand side, and the top left is fine for White. 7/10

4-3 approach

Normal, and expected. Looks sort of even to me, but White still gets his sente approach in.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm7 Move 7 - B:0 - W:0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 3 . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 1 . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 4 , . 6 . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . a . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I do wonder about

at "a" instead. The shimari is probably rather good for White here, and may still be of more value than the upper right approach. Also, the left may be sufficiently thin that White should take "b" instead as well, but I don't want too many stones on just one side of the board just yet. As "a" is sente because of the lower edge, perhaps exchanging that for the bottom then taking "b" is good, preventing a Black double wing and securing the left in one stroke. It's not like we can't decide how to deal with the top right later. The thing I like about the upper right approach and pull back is it makes it hard for Black to approach the lower right:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm15 Move 15 - B:0 - W:0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . X . 8 . . 0 . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , . O 9 . . , . . . 1 . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 2 . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . 6 4 , . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . 7 . 5 3 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

White can destroy the top area and develop the right in one fell swoop, and Black is kept low everywhere. Black now has little development potential, and the game feels really good to me. 6/10

I feel that Black's shimari was slightly slow, but time will tell as we develop from where we currently are. Certainly, even in all of these variations, White and Black feel close to even for me.

tj86430 · Post by **tj86430** » Thu Oct 28, 2010 10:32 am

If my teammate posts something hidden labeled "for observers" am I allowed to look at it?

topazg · Post by **topazg** » Thu Oct 28, 2010 10:34 am

tj86430 wrote:If my teammate posts something hidden labeled "for observers" am I allowed to look at it?

Nope, not ideally

That's really captain's hopes and desires for our audience to laugh at

Post by **Joaz Banbeck** » Thu Oct 28, 2010 1:23 pm

For observers, not players:

fwiffo wrote:My first thought is that now is the time to take the upper left. The extension is low, which means the formation they end up with on the side will be easy to reduce and they'll be somewhat overconcentrated. But I don't have a specific move to suggest yet, as I have an opportunity to take my time to consider the possibilities.

I really like the direction that Fwiffo's reasoning is going. I suspect that D17 or C17 is our best move. And making them overconcentrated is one of the keys to making it work.

Now if one of the other soldiers suggests a splitting attack, I'll be a happy captain.

If I have time to read, I'd like to invade the top left, and do it in such a manner that the resulting joseki is incompatible with white's latest play at C9.

If I were playing a casual game, I'd split without looking twice, hoping for this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc Move $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Jedo · Post by **Jedo** » Thu Oct 28, 2010 2:05 pm

Black suggestion:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm6 Move 6 - B:0 - W:0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . b . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

As the position stands now, it seems like the two biggest areas to play are around a and b, both of white's unenclosed corners. The important things to think about are which of these are more important to us and which are more important to white. White's latest is mostly a spoiling move; it's only purpose seems to be to prevent our enclose from building nicely. It does indeed build off the 5-4 stone, but this is like building a second story before building a foundation, since a is needed to get some meaning out of the area. Even so, white's latest is in the wrong direction from the enclosure, so it's not so big of a deal.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm6 Move 6 - B:0 - W:0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . c . . . . . d . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . e . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . b . . . . . a . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

If white gets a we can get b, and if they get c we can get d. Given a choice between these exchanges, i think the cd one is better for us, since it gives us a wider extension with the possibility of a double wing at e if white lets us. If white plays a however I would be less thrilled to play b, since like white's latest it is mostly a spoiling move that doesn't give us much room for development. I think this fact is another argument for playing a right now. Another is that, as I will show, a does more to help us build than b does.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm6 Move 6 - B:0 - W:0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . a 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . b . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

If we are going to jump into the upper right, i think this is definitely the spot. Anything else is too slack for a diagonal fuseki. White's two main choices are to take profit with a or influence with b. If white takes b we will get shut in with a few points while white gets some influence:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm6 Move 6 - B:0 - W:0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . 3 . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I dont really know the joseki for this, but regardless it leads to a position that, while fine for us, could be better, as our new group clearly will have no room for growth, and white's thickness will stunt the position of our 44 stone. If white takes the other option:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm6 Move 6 - B:0 - W:0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 4 . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 3 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 5 , . 8 . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Again this is playable for us, but I feel like it lets white make his last move too efficient, as it is well placed for this joseki. As a side note, Fwiffo's comments that we can make white both over concentrated and easy to reduce seem contradictory, since a position that is over-concentrated seems to be by definition in fact so hard to reduce that it is not an efficient use of stones. For these reasons I'm not thrilled with the upper left corner, but suggest the lower right instead.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm6 Move 6 - B:0 - W:0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . b a , . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . c . 2 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This is my suggestion. White has three main options at a b and c. Pressing us down at a makes absolutely no sense in this situation since white has no hope of building a framework and would just be giving us free points:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm6 Move 6 - B:0 - W:0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 7 . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . c 5 3 , . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . 6 . 4 2 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This leaves us sente to take big moves like a b and c. We could get lucky, but it might be safe to assume that white probably will not choose this path. So what about the other options?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm6 Move 6 - B:0 - W:0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . a . , . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . b . 2 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

If white takes the taisha with a then it is impossible to predict what will happen, but no matter what variation is chosen I'm confident we will get a good result, since we control both adjacent corners. If white pincers:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm6 Move 6 - B:0 - W:0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . 4 , . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . b . 3 . 2 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

We might get some variation like this, in which we are capable of a severe attack by leaning on the side stones and then counter pincering the bottom one. There are many other ways for us to react to the pincer as well.

Regardless of how white responds to our kakari, we will almost definitely get both a good result AND sente to either approach the top left or take another big move. For these reasons my suggestion is:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm6 Move 6 - B:0 - W:0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Other stuff to team black that has nothing to do with this move"

Post by **Joaz Banbeck** » Thu Oct 28, 2010 4:40 pm

Other stuff to team black that has nothing to do with this move:

Post by **Joaz Banbeck** » Thu Oct 28, 2010 5:20 pm

For teammates:

Jedo · Post by **Jedo** » Thu Oct 28, 2010 9:31 pm

black people

Post by **Jordus** » Fri Oct 29, 2010 12:01 am

Internal Black Chat

I am thinking of 3, well possibly 4 moves for the next one... I labeled them in order of rank in what I would play from a-d.....

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$bcm6 Move 6 - B:0 - W:0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . c . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . d . . . . . , a . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . b . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Move A:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$bcm6 Move 6 - B:0 - W:0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . x . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 1 . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . z . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I like A because it gives the board a balanced feel... It does give white the chance to shimari at z, but Black has sente and the board is still balanced... Also white is weak in the corner at x...

Move B:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$bcm6 Move 6 - B:0 - W:0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . a , . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . 1 c . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Can be played at current position or (a). (c) may also work to take the corner but I think it gives white too big a wall to use... The purpose of this move in its current position is to prevent whites shimari.... while giving black influence to the corner and sides, making white choose which to play for...

Move C:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$bcm6 Move 6 - B:0 - W:0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 x . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This corner can be easily invaded... 3-3 I think may be the best way to do it... though playing at x may work better...

Move D:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm Move - B:0 - W:0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . . . , 3 . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Tengen... This allows white to shimari, black responds by balancing the board with 3... Now the board is balanced and black controls tengen... Downside is white now has sente... However playing tengen might throw the opponent off a little... Another advantage?

KGS 4 kyu · Post by **fwiffo** » Sat Oct 30, 2010 1:17 pm

My suggestion for

:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 Move 6 - B:0 - W:0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

There are a couple approaches to this 5-4 stone, but I think this is the best one here. I don't know 5-4 or 5-3 joseki that well, but there are a few simple lines that I'm aware of. Either they end up with white with a wall facing the wrong way (i.e. not at his side extension), or they give up a healthy sized corner to black with access to the outside.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ $$ ----------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . 5 . . . . $$ | . . 1 2 3 . . . $$ | . . . 4 . . . . $$ | . . . W . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . , . . . . $$ | . . O . . . . .[/go]

White can cut on the inside to take the outside stone in a ladder, but

becomes a meaningless stone. He can take the corner, but we get a nice position on the outside that works with our upper right, and again, the marked stone is rendered redundant.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ $$ ----------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . $$ | . . 1 3 . . 5 . $$ | . . 2 , . . . . $$ | . . . O . 4 . . $$ | . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . , . . . . $$ | . . O . . . . .[/go]

This way, we get a decent corner. Their extension is low, so we can reduce it, or they have to spend a move to expand and make it worthwhile.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ $$ ----------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . $$ | . . 1 . 2 . . . $$ | . . . , . . . . $$ | . . 3 O . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . , . . . . $$ | . . O . . . . .[/go]

There are several variations after this that I don't know exactly, but I recall them all being generally intuitive. In all the variations, white gets influence facing the wrong way, making the extension mostly useless.

Post by **Jordus** » Sat Oct 30, 2010 1:30 pm

My suggestion for move

:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$bcm6 Move 6 - B:0 - W:0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . c . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . d . . . . . , 7 . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . b . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

From my original suggestions Jedo took B, and Fwiffo took C, So I will have to go with A....

I decided not to go with tengen because black can still do it if they want after

Post by **Joaz Banbeck** » Sat Oct 30, 2010 9:00 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc Move 7 - B:0 - W:0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . B . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

For observers and teammates:

Joaz Banbeck wrote:..Yilun Yang wrote a book called "Fundamental principles of Go", in which he has a chapter on ranking moves in the early game. He has several classes of moves starting with the most important.

The first class is playing in an empty corner.
The second class is
A) playing the second move - either a kakari or a shimari - in a corner that already has a 3-4, 3-5, or 4-5 stone.
B) playing on the side in if both corners face that way
There is a third class and a fourth class, and they have several subdivisions.
...

So far, all of the moves made have followed those principles. The first four moves took the first four corners, thus exhausting all of the first class moves. Move number five was a shimari, a second class move. Move six was a play on a side between two corners which both faced that side ( although it feels just a bit improper to me, because the extension might be good if it were from a friendly corner that had been finished - but this one is not. )

Jedo wrote:...As the position stands now, it seems like the two biggest areas to play are around a and b, both of white's unenclosed corners...

This seems to be in line with Yang.

fwiffo wrote:...My first thought is that now is the time to take the upper left. The extension is low, which means the formation they end up with on the side will be easy to reduce and they'll be somewhat overconcentrated. But I don't have a specific move to suggest yet, as I have an opportunity to take my time to consider the possibilities...

I really like this idea of exploiting white's possibly misplaced sixth move. Unfortunately, I don't think that it can be done by invading. Jedo demonstrates ( http://lifein19x19.com/forum/viewtopic. ... 866#p37866 ) several lines that look good for white if we try to do it at the 3-4 point.
The following diagram looks too good for white if we invade at the 3-3

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc 6 could also be at a or b. $$ ----------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . $$ | . . 1 3 . . 5 . $$ | . . 2 , . . . . $$ | . . . O . 4 . . $$ | . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . a . . . . $$ | . . . , . . . . $$ | . . O . 6 . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . $$ | . . b . . . . .[/go]

The suggestion of R10 ( a third class move in Yang's hierarchy, BTW ) is just a teeny bit slack. It is not a bad move, but it does not go for the most important areas: the two incomplete corners. One corner is tactically problematic, but the other isn't.

That bring us to the last nominee: Q3. It does go for one of the biggest spots, and it seems to not bring us any problems while doing so. The nominator suggests that we may come out of it with sente.

For observers:

Redundant · Post by **Redundant** » Sat Oct 30, 2010 9:33 pm

Website · Post by **Chew Terr** » Sun Oct 31, 2010 1:11 am

Team white:

Life In 19x19

Teamovitch #1

Re: Teamovitch #1

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Re: Teamovitch #1