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95: Balmung (7k?) vs Aphelion (5k)

https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?t=3105

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Re: 95: Balmung (7k?) vs Aphelion (5k)

Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 5:31 pm
by Tommie
Magicwand
I think that's also a Chinese saying too. And I'm pretty sure I've heard someone say it in Japan, during a lecture. It's pretty good advice.



It doesn't fully fit, but "走为上" -
(If you can not win today)
"Run away
- to fight another day."

is a bit related (it is the last of 36. ji, the 36. stratagem).

Re: 95: Balmung (7k?) vs Aphelion (5k)

Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 6:17 pm
by hyperpape
I have heard "when in doubt, tenuki" as a plain old english proverb before.

Re: 95: Balmung (7k?) vs Aphelion (5k)

Posted: Sun Feb 06, 2011 7:40 pm
by balmung
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B1cm10 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X B . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B1cm10 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X 1 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X 2 |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Possible out come
note: sorry I haven't posted much been busy with school and teaching count23, and count23 has gotten better and has won a few games on kgs after alot of instruction. He also has gone from 9 stone handicap white -100 komi to a 9 stone handicap white 0 komi.

Re: 95: Balmung (7k?) vs Aphelion (5k)

Posted: Sun Feb 06, 2011 8:04 pm
by Aphelion
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B1cm10 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . W |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Balmung, you can add these forced moves for me in the future in the interest of time.
This is fantastic.

Re: 95: Balmung (7k?) vs Aphelion (5k)

Posted: Sun Feb 06, 2011 8:30 pm
by balmung
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B1cm10 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Ok, I on the other hand would appreciate moves to consider the forcing moves you play against me.

observers note these might be obvious
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B1cm10 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . d . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . a e . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O |
$$ | . . c , . . . . . , . . . . . O . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . |
$$ | . . f . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . b . . . g . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

general points we might want

Re: 95: Balmung (7k?) vs Aphelion (5k)

Posted: Sun Feb 06, 2011 8:37 pm
by Redundant
As Shaddy likes to say, "This move is a pass."

It's not quite a pass, but this move does very little.

Re: 95: Balmung (7k?) vs Aphelion (5k)

Posted: Sun Feb 06, 2011 8:38 pm
by daniel_the_smith
Argh, ninja'd, but I'll say it anyway: PASS

EDIT: I think black is behind by more than a handicap stone.

Re: 95: Balmung (7k?) vs Aphelion (5k)

Posted: Sun Feb 06, 2011 8:39 pm
by Aphelion
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm26 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O . |
$$ | . . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I can't believe he let me get a move on the left first. I'm picking this move because I think it best compliments my strong grouop on the right, and I feel like fighting.

Re: 95: Balmung (7k?) vs Aphelion (5k)

Posted: Sun Feb 06, 2011 11:16 pm
by jts
daniel_the_smith wrote:
Argh, ninja'd, but I'll say it anyway: PASS

EDIT: I think black is behind by more than a handicap stone.

In fairness to Balmung, even if he is 7k he would still need two handicap stones.

Re: 95: Balmung (7k?) vs Aphelion (5k)

Posted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 3:54 am
by Laman
as everyone before me pointed out, black's last move is a mistake. i think it is fair to add an explanation why it is so.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm10 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . a . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O |
$$ | . . c , . . . . . , . . . . . O . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

first, even on context of upper right quarter, P14 has lower priority than settling the upper side (extension like black 'a').
and the upper side has (pretty obviously) lower priority than left side (b, possibly c or others) - the widest open area left

i can't really evaluate value of opening moves, so i cannot prove correctness of these statements. if someone (most importantly balmung after the game) doesn't agree, i am open to discussion, but i don't believe b P14

one good thing about P14 is that it puts slight pressure on the white group below and aims for possible using aji of R8-9, but the timing is very off

Re: 95: Balmung (7k?) vs Aphelion (5k)

Posted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 3:56 am
by hyperpape
re balmung's thoughts about big points on the board (I'll unhide later):
I think d and g are not interesting in your diagram. Black is low and solid in the lower right, making the bottom less interesting. K17 is too close to Black's position in the upper right--this extension seems likely to claim a small territory--you want to somehow play further away, I think.

Re: 95: Balmung (7k?) vs Aphelion (5k)

Posted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 3:58 am
by topazg
To Balmung:

Useful to know the points you want going forward, but what was your purpose behind P14?

Posted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 4:14 am
by EdLee
Not for either player.
:b25: (a) in the game is gote; B could have taken a big point on the left side.
Locally, :bc: is better: if W replies at (b), then B still gets a big point on the left side;
and if W ignores it, then B has the nice follow-up atari with (b):
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$
$$ ---------------
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . X . . . . . |
$$ . . . , X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . a . . . . |
$$ . . . B X X . |
$$ . . b O X O . |
$$ . . . . O . O |
$$ . . . O . O . |[/go]

Re: 95: Balmung (7k?) vs Aphelion (5k)

Posted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 12:34 pm
by Violence
The mentality behind P14 seems pretty evident to me here...

"My earlier moves were bad, so I must get equal compensation for them."

"You have that amount of territory there, but aha! Look! I have made a comparable amount on the top right!"

"Surely my bad move is not so bad anymore, for I have successfully gotten equal compensation out of its sacrifice. Right, guys? Guys?"

The common logic of "getting the most out of dead stones" is often misconstrued by many players, who often dig themselves into a deeper hole with "sacrifice" tactics. This is a good example of that.

Re: 95: Balmung (7k?) vs Aphelion (5k)

Posted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 8:43 am
by balmung
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm26 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I probably should have done this instead of take the 30 point play in the upper right, but now either he gives me the corner or outside influence based on what joseki he picks and how he plays it. The game might be very close soon
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