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106. kirby vs topazg

https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?t=3455

Page 5 of 11

Re: 106. kirby vs topazg

Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2011 9:45 am
by Kirby
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 0 . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O . O . O . . . . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . O X . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . X . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I still feel pretty comfortable with this board position.


I suppose my primary concern is that black has some central power. I feel OK territorially, but can he invest that central power in an effective way?

Re: 106. kirby vs topazg

Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2011 10:01 am
by topazg
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm31 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 2 . . . . . . O . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . 3 O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . 5 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O . O . O . . . . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . O X . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . X . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Let me know if you disagree :)

I've been going forwards and backwards between the shoulder hit and the invasion for a few minutes. Then I figure he's low on top, so I'm playing it now.

Re: 106. kirby vs topazg

Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2011 10:11 am
by Kirby
I will have to think about that variation. There are several options here, and I'm not sure if the one he selected is the one I want or not. Hmm...


Somehow, with the picture he has right there, I feel a bit behind. I wonder if there is a better variation for white.

Re: 106. kirby vs topazg

Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2011 10:19 am
by Kirby
Some possibilities...:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 9 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 2 . . . . . . O . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . 3 O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . 5 4 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 6 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O . O . O . . . . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . O X . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . X . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . 2 . . . . O . . O . X . . . |
$$ | 3 . X O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O X 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O . O . O . . . . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . O X . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . X . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



or maybe:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 5 4 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 2 . . . . . . O . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . 3 O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . 9 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 7 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O . O . O . . . . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . O X . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . X . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11 Now what?
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . O . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . 1 X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O . O . O . . . . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . O X . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . X . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


or


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 5 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 3 4 . . . . . O . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . 7 2 O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O . O . O . . . . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . O X . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . X . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Or...?

I'm just not sure what's better for white right now. :(

Re: 106. kirby vs topazg

Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2011 1:37 pm
by Loons
I never knew about this. I still don't (if I'm playing)! I hope it comes up.

Removed, because I was confused. Given Kirby's local strength, he can take )away, part of) "topazg's" top right corner (in the event that exchange becomes desirable, endgame).

Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2011 4:55 pm
by EdLee
Kirby wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 5 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 3 4 . . . . . O . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . 7 2 O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
This :w2: seems wrong direction.

Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2011 4:56 pm
by EdLee
Loons,
Loons wrote:I never knew about this.
What didn't you know about? :study:

Re: 106. kirby vs topazg

Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2011 5:27 pm
by Loons
Ed,
I don't know! I think I was thinking of something like pointing out that this sort of "resistance" doesn't work properly or at all when white has outside stones, but it's too hard for me right now.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ --------------------+
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . 6 5 . . |
$$ . O . . O . X . . . |
$$ , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ . . . . . . 2 . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . X 3 . |
$$ . . . . . . . 4 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ X . . . . . , X . . |
$$ . X . . . X . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------------+[/go]

Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2011 5:37 pm
by EdLee
Loons,
Loons wrote:I was thinking of something like pointing out that this sort of "resistance" doesn't work properly or at all when white has outside stones
Ah, I see; I have the opposite impression:
for :w1: to work, it seems W would need to be massively stronger on the outside (than in the current game).
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$-----------
$$. . . . . |
$$. . . . . |
$$. X . . . |
$$. X . . . |
$$. . 1 . . |
$$. 2 . . . |
$$. . X . . |
$$. . . . . |[/go]

Re: 106. kirby vs topazg

Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2011 6:34 pm
by cyclops
@observers
If B plays R11 he is safe from invasion and reduces W's eyespace. A similar position is discussed in the last problem of "In the Beginning"

Re: 106. kirby vs topazg

Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2011 7:09 pm
by Aphelion
Cyclops:
The difference is that in the problem you described, the big fuseki points are all gone and the black top is very well settled. Here, the wall that would result from the invasion would cause too much harm to O17 and L17, and pretty much destroy White's prospects of any points on the top

Re: 106. kirby vs topazg

Posted: Fri Mar 25, 2011 7:31 am
by Kirby
I’m still struggling to come up with the best way to play in this position. Prior to the 3-3 invasion, I felt pretty confident about the board position, but though the 3-3 invasion is an obvious possibility for black, now that he’s done it, I’m not so sure about my position, or if I’ll have enough points.

I’m a little frustrated at the moment, so it’s probably not a good idea to post what I’m currently planning on just yet. The reason I’m frustrated is because I feel behind, even though I don’t know why. That feels worse to me than a game where I’ve made an obvious blunder. It means that I am not strong enough to know what I’ve done wrong.

If I look back on the moves I’ve played, which one would I have played differently? I’m not sure I can really answer that right now. I need to calm myself down a little bit, take a step back, and make sure that my plan is sound before continuing. People say that emotions are not a part of go, but…

Re: 106. kirby vs topazg

Posted: Fri Mar 25, 2011 7:58 am
by Kirby
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm31 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 2 . . . . . . O . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . 3 O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O . O . O . . . . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . O X . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . X . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


OK, so I caved. I'm playing anyway. Maybe I'm behind, but I just have to be patient and wait for my chance. That's what Magicwand did against him.

Re: 106. kirby vs topazg

Posted: Fri Mar 25, 2011 8:00 am
by hman
Kirby wrote:People say that emotions are not a part of go, but…


As a humble long-year beginner I've always read that as emotions should not be a part of go, learn to play with brain ONLY not heart: play the board not the player, don't be greedy, don't throw good stones after bad (because you are still emotionally attached to them) and so on.

Confirmation (or not) by experienced players welcome.

Edit: hide tags removed.

Re: 106. kirby vs topazg

Posted: Fri Mar 25, 2011 8:43 am
by Joaz Banbeck
Kirby wrote:...

OK, so I caved...


@Kirby:
I wouldn't call it caving. I call 34 a strong move. I like it better than the alternative that Topazg suggested.


@observers:
According to my reading, Kirby should be able to lock him in without allowing a connection underneath. Then F12 starts looking interesting.
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