Life In 19x19

i certainly dont like my position but i am thinking it could have been worse.
i was afraid they might play as below..

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[go]$$Wcm19 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . C . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X . X . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O X O . . , . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X B . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
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$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
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$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

although i lost load of points in the corner i gained some influence in the middle that will give me a chance to win.
i can see that my opponent is 5 brain working together. i think it will be hard to win against them in 2 stones.
i rather have a postion that will give me more chance to win and i think influence will provided me with that chance.

Hmm, wouldn't this sequence be better influence-wise for white, or is it bad because it hurts . Perhaps it's better not to force black to take such a large corner.

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[go]$$Wcm19 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 3 X O X . X . . Q . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 8 6 X O X O . . , . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . 7 5 O X X 2 . . . Q . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O 1 . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
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$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
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$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

your diag is best for white but you are missing correct diag and sequence.

i will admit that i am in a hole for selecting wrong variation.
i used to play point oriented game when i was low dan..
now i love thickness oriented game.
i feel more comfortable having thickness than point.
his corner is big..but i think i am ok long as i have influence in the middle to play my game.

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[go]$$Wcm19 Black 20
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$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X a X . X . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O X O . . , . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X 1 . c . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . d O e . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . |
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$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

[daniel the smith]: is it even worth discussing? I vote ''a'', leave white with cutting point(s).

[topazg] Agreed, and we get a nice big corner by the looks of things. Depending on where he fixes, I want "b" next - that way we either swallow the stone or get chased across to swallow the pair?

Alternatively we could play "c", separating the White groups. That probably looks better actually ... hmmm...

[daniel the smith] Yes, ''c'' is what I was thinking about...

[Dusk Eagle]: I think ''a'' is a must. White will have two cutting points and that makes his shape very ugly. If he captures out two stones (in sente, as he then threatens the corner), his group gets so much stronger.

[JoazBanbeck] I'm dead tired after a 12-hour work day. ( Yes, it was very profitable, thank you ) But my first reaction is 'c'.

A hot shower and two asprins later, I still hold the same opinion. I disagree with DE's assement of MW's play being sente. If we tenuki to J15, we get an extra move in. Sure, we have to recapture locally, but MW realy does not have sente because now he has to reply to J15. He is effectively in gote, not sente.

I agree with Daniel that is is barely worth discussing but nonethless I added a few diagrams below.

[daniel the smith] I will think about that, I don't know if I'll change my mind or not.

[Kirby] I vote 9/10 for 'a', and 1/10 for 'c'.

[daniel the smith] I think Joaz has convinced me. .8 for ''c'', .2 for ''a''

[Kirby] I still feel that the local profit from white's cutting points is worth more than a global strategy that we cannot easily predict. It's true that splitting white is good for us, but we get solid, definite profit by connecting our stones. Magicwand cannot connect to his two stones on the top right in a single move, and we still have the approach at 'b'. I was back and forth between capturing and moving out with the last move, but since we decided to capture, we shouldn't let up in this local area, IMO.

[daniel the smith] Looks like people have pretty much made up their minds and ''a'' will win, unless topazg wants to change his vote.

[topazg] I like the possibility of cuts at 'd' and 'e' too much. I think connecting leaves us with at least 2, and possibly 3, excellent moves. If he does capture, we lose at least 1 of them. I also like 'c', I just want to see MW leaving bad aji everywhere I've updated my votes below:

''votes:''

''a'': 0.7 (topazg) + .9 (Kirby) + 1 (DE) + .2 (dts) = 2.8

''c'': 0.3 (topazg) + 1 (Joaz) + .1 (Kirby) + .8 (dts) = 2.2

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[Joaz Banbeck]If we sacrifice our two stones, we get the splitting attack with J15:

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[go]$$Bc Diagram 20A
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$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X 2 X . X . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O X O . . , . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X O . 1 . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc Diagram 20B
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$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . X . X . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O 3 O . . , . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . O . 1 . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . d . . O . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . e . . O . . . |
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$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

[Joaz Banbeck]...and when we recapture he has no eye space and we are threatening moves like 'd' and 'e'.

[daniel the smith]: White fixed two cutting points in sente, is B1 worth that?

[Joaz Banbeck] Yes, IMHO. Remember, sente is simply the option to take any point on the board. We will have just gotten J15, which IS the most important point on the board. How can sente be better than that?

And the two cutting points are mutually exclusive as DE notes below: when MW replies to one he thereby almost fixes the other. We really have only one usable cutting point, and would do better to count them as one.

When we get J15, his stones at L15 and L17 are in trouble, which is worth more than either cut.

[daniel the smith] Re: "we really have only one usable cutting point": That's true any time your opponent has two cutting points near each other. You can't expect to get *both*! Therefore it's not really supporting your point...

[Joaz Banbeck] @Daniel: I'm not sure that I follow the logic here. You seem to be arguing that the general truth af a proposition weakens its particular application. Anyway, by whatever process, can we agree that we really only have one usable cutting point?

[daniel the smith] My point was that we all know "white has two cutting points" means "we get to cut at one", so I didn't see why you were mentioning it. Sure, we only get to cut at one--in my mind that's just saying the same thing a different way.

[JoazBanbeck] "We all know..."? I didn't. Maybe that idea is common knowledge for you folks, but I had never heard of it before. I had to deduce it myself from DE's comments.

BTW, this seems to argue for the idea that several 1Ds CAN add their knowledge together.

[daniel the smith] Ah, apologies for my presumption then. And I think we're already doing better than a single one of us would have done.

[JoazBanbeck] Uhhh...thanks...but no apology is needed. I am in your debt for pointing out a proverb that most 1Ds apparently knew but I didn't.

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[go]$$Bc Diagram 20C
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$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X 1 X . X . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O X O . . , . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 O X O . 2 . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 3 O 5 . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

[Joaz Banbeck]OTOH, letting white have J15 renders the G13 cut surprisingly ineffective.

[Dusk Eagle] B3 seems like a mistake. If we're going to cut at B5, we should probably just do it directly. On the other hand, if we consider B3's side to be more important, than B5 looks like a mistake.

[daniel the smith] Agree with DE.

[Joaz Banbeck] OK, maybe we can play in a better manner than dia 20C. What continuation would you say is best for us? And is it better than our result in dia 20B?

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[go]$$Bc Diagram 20D - Someone please show our best line here
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$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X 1 X . X . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O X O . . , . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X O . 2 . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bcm3 Diagram 20E
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$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X X . X . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O X O . . , . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X O . O . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 1 O . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
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$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

[Dusk Eagle] Even something like this seems really good for us IMO. White's shape still has holes, and we have a huge corner. I don't think white has made any headway into our two-stone lead, and actually I would say white has lost a little up to this point.

[JoazBanbeck] I agree that this result is good for us. But is it better than dia 20B?

In 20E MW has secured his two stones at L15 and L17, and consequently we still have a potential problem in the upper right. In 20B we still get a decent corner, and we have no weaknesses, and he has two weak groups. Why should we play an asymetric game, taking profit early but leaving chances for him to come back?

I say we should stay safe all over, and leave him with all the weakness, and no reasonable chance of attacking us. It is the sure way to win.

[Kirby] I feel like 20B and 20E are both good diagrams for us, but 20E makes me feel very confident about the game. Magicwand doesn't have anything, really, and a good portion of the board is finished. If we are ahead now, "finishing" more parts of the board seems like a good way to keep our lead. I think that 20B still looks very good for us, but there is more uncertainty as to what he can do on the left. With 20E, I feel like the game is simplified, leaving Magicwand with a sure disadvantage.

[topazg] I agree, 20B to me feels like a complicated fight still to go on, with no guarantee of success other than a general upper hand. We've effectively given White a giant ponnuki in sente - that _can't_ be good with respect to whole board influence. We're really banking on capturing those 2 stones to play this way I think. 20E just looks like some really solid profit - that's one enormous corner, and White has little compensation other than having a less endangered group.

i can not predict what black will play on next move.
which is good for me

it doent look right (i mean it feels wrong initally) but i i was black i would choose below variation.

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[go]$$Wcm19 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X 3 X . X . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O c O . . , . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 O c O . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . O . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
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$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

i really didnt think too much on this variation...but i am 100% sure that black didnt cash their chance.
because of my last move now i can limit their points and build my influence same time...
exactly what i wanted.

when i atari two stone i knew that it is wrong.
but i had a feeling that my opponents would answer that atari.
my correct sequence should have been as below.
that atari was unnecessary and risky.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wcm19 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . X . X . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 X O X . . . , . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . 3 1 O X O . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

It couldn't have happened at a better tim. We have about 10 nominated votes and no concensus. Having a little time to think things over can't hurt.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wcm21 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . m X X X . X . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . a X O X O . . , . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . c 1 O X O . d . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . h O i e . f . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . b . . . . . . . g j . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . k . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , k . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I'm surprised at the amount of discussion going on here. It is my feeling that (a) and (c) are the only moves and they seem kind of forced.

I had a Go tournament all of yesterday, so sorry I missed out on the discussions up until this point. I don't have a lot of time today either unfortunately .

We obviously do not have a good understanding of this position, and it may be premature to vote.

I've got an idea: Let's play out the game multiple times from this position on KGS - sort of Monte Carlo method with people instead of computers. I can be arrange to be on KGS from 9:30AM to 11:00AM and again from 1:00PM to 4:00PM Pacific time tomorrow ( 3-28 ). I'll take either the white side with 'a', or the black side with 'd' or 'e', and maybe other variations. PM me to set up exact time if interested.