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32. Magicwand (3d) vs. Kirby (1d)

https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?t=388

Page 5 of 14

Re: 32. Magicwand vs. Kirby

Posted: Tue May 04, 2010 3:28 pm
by Solomon
I'm rather surprised Kirby didn't play M13. That move is simply vital. White getting to play M13 is a scratch on what was once diamond - the value of Black's thickness has sunken dramatically.

Re: 32. Magicwand vs. Kirby

Posted: Tue May 04, 2010 3:48 pm
by Magicwand
i assume everyone is talking about my opponent's mistake?? or my overplay??

if someone have any questions please ask.
believe or not some interaction with observer will motivate me to write more comments.

Re: 32. Magicwand vs. Kirby

Posted: Tue May 04, 2010 4:59 pm
by Dusk Eagle
For Magicwand:
What do you think black's best reply(ies) (and your follow-ups etc.) to your capping move at 26 were? There seems to be so many options, and it's hard to tell what is good.


Not for players:
I admit that when I play on KGS, I tend to adopt Magicwand's "My opponent is a terrible player" attitude. When I play in person though, this attitude disappears. Something about actually seeing my opponent changes my attitude toward them?

Re: 32. Magicwand vs. Kirby

Posted: Tue May 04, 2010 5:58 pm
by Magicwand
[quote="Dusk Eagle"]For Magicwand:
What do you think black's best reply(ies) (and your follow-ups etc.) to your capping move at 26 were? There seems to be so many options, and it's hard to tell what is good.


good question. i dont think i am able to provide you with 100% correct answer. but i will tell you what i would've done.
by simply jumping out i am in big trouble. it was that simple. what i played is an overplay. although there are many other hurdles to jumpover this picture is good for black in my opinion.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . X . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . 1 . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]




doctrine states that you should use knight move to counter cap a and b. below diag i think a or b is correct counter and try to split my white stones.
i must warn you it maybe true in doctrine but i have experienced and saw toomany occasion where knight move made it more complicated and sometimes become a BAD move. always remember that correct answer is depended on the surrounding.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . a . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O b . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Re: 32. Magicwand vs. Kirby

Posted: Tue May 04, 2010 7:56 pm
by Kirby
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm37 Move 37 - Prisoners: B=0, W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . X . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O O . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


The Good
OK, so he captured my stone. The part I feel good about is that I have sente. My group on the top is fairly stable, and as stated earlier, I feel like I can live in the top right corner...

The Bad
The problem is, as I mentioned earlier, I think that I'm behind. After the sequence following white's capping move, Magicwand has done a good job of reducing the effect of my influence on the bottom. The flow of this game doesn't seem to be working for me...

Planning
But, my groups are OK, I think, and I have sente. That's the good part :)
So I think I really need to figure out a way to use my influence, or I'm going to lose the game. I'm already behind, and I need to do something to turn the game around. Before I mentioned being patient, but after thinking for awhile since lunchtime, I think that I need to play actively now... But what is a good move to play?

Typically if I am going to attack, I try to find a weak group to exploit. The problem is, none of Magicwand's groups are terribly weak. The weakest white stones are the ones on the left side of the board.

So here's my plan of attack:

The Bait Attack, a.k.a If-I'm-Going-Down-I'm-Going-Down-In-Flames, a.k.a Plan A
I need to get a weak white group to attack. How do I do this? Simply speaking, I am going to try to set some bait for white to attack. If white goes for the bait, then I will try to counter-attack.

Here's how it starts:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . X . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O O . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I'm going to start off by playing at :b1: above. This is a threat to make his two stones on the bottom left weak. If white pincers, then I can dive into the corner to take away eye-space:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . X . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O O . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . 4 . . X . . . . . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . 5 3 . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


White may be able to connect up with two in the diagram above, but in doing so, I hope to expand my moyo on the bottom, and hopefully a lot of it will turn into points.

But white might not pincer. He might solidly defend the corner. This is a little bad for my bottom area because white can invade it easier, but if white plays this way, I'm going to try to make bait for him to attack:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . X . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O O . X . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 . . . . . . O O X . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



after :b3:, I'm not sure what white will do exactly, but if he does a low pincer, I want to cap him, and start a fight that I can hopefully direct for profit:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , B . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



I'm not sure if this plan will work, but it was fun to construct, so I'm going to try it out.

Re: 32. Magicwand vs. Kirby

Posted: Tue May 04, 2010 8:02 pm
by Magicwand
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm38 Move 38 - Prisoners: B=0, W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . X . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O O . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X W . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


this is what i want and expect. i want limited variation and no complication everything solid game from now on.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm38 Move 38 - Prisoners: B=0, W=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . X . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O O . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . 4 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X 1 . 5 . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Re: 32. Magicwand vs. Kirby

Posted: Wed May 05, 2010 4:44 am
by Fredrik
To Magicwand

You are the one that spoke highly about showing the correct diagrams to the weaker players, so I hope you dont mind that I critize you a bit :)

Your play in the lowerright corner is terrible. First of all, your move 12 goes against the fundamentals of Go. You should struggle to get ahead, and not behind. You motivatied this move by stating that Kirby is a weaker player then you, that's why you played it. Do you mean you played it to give him some kind of handicap?

The second idea that you got all wrong is, your white 20 and white 22 are not big moves at all but yose! This is a common mistake lower danplayers make when facing a kobayashi moyo. In the current position, white 22, jumping in on the second line only strengthened the moyo, as before that move you could still have invaded the side completely with M3 as you at least have the help by R2. You should think over these moves, and see that you were clearly behind when you stated you were ahead :)

Continuing on, your play off W 24 and W 26 are very strange. If you play moves just to trick your opponent (which 26 is, you wont see a pro play this in an even game. And I quote you "f you want to get stronger you must play like a professional on every move. many useless variations will do more harm than good." I think you are quite strong, so you should teach the beginners the correct move and not the trick overplay ones no?

Perhaps in this case you were actually stronger then your opponent and you got a great result, I can't argue with that ^^

Lastly, your move 30 not connecting at the peep is also not good. Even though yet again your opponent did not punish you. Your move leave the crucial weakness at N16 making your shape into an empty triangle! and letting black connect underneath. And actually, you dont solify your outside by a lot. A black move at L14 would still had been severe.
As you are korean you should not the proverb "Even a fool connect at the peep" :-)

I hope you don't find me very rude criticizing your moves. We dont want beginners to get the wrong idea by the players writing incorrect ideas right? :-?

Re: 32. Magicwand vs. Kirby

Posted: Wed May 05, 2010 5:16 am
by Magicwand
You are the one that spoke highly about showing the correct diagrams to the weaker players, so I hope you dont mind that I critize you a bit :)

i believe it is a constructive criticism so thank you.

Your play in the lowerright corner is terrible. First of all, your move 12 goes against the fundamentals of Go. You should struggle to get ahead, and not behind. You motivatied this move by stating that Kirby is a weaker player then you, that's why you played it. Do you mean you played it to give him some kind of handicap?

The second idea that you got all wrong is, your white 20 and white 22 are not big moves at all but yose! This is a common mistake lower danplayers make when facing a kobayashi moyo. In the current position, white 22, jumping in on the second line only strengthened the moyo, as before that move you could still have invaded the side completely with M3 as you at least have the help by R2. You should think over these moves, and see that you were clearly behind when you stated you were ahead :)

fundamentals of GO? you mean shapes?
can you give me one variation that you are sure that is better than outcome i have?
i may had some other variations but wasnt to my liking. i picked safe way.
lose few points and stay in the game.

i believe i am stronger than you (if you dont think so you may play me :) ) so i will give you my view of the game.
there were time when i love to play moyo. and i could not understand why komi is only 6.5
playing as white it feels like black have advantage everytime.
but it started to change. i started to like playing as white.
i guess i learned that 10 point in the corner is good as the moyo black gets.
i was fairly satisfied with the corner and it fits my style.

about my 20 and 22:
yose? you might call it that but i believe it is that big.
you might disagree because you can not feel the importance of that play.
cho chihoon as a professional played crazy yose in the beginning and was successful.
i believe you should think about what if there are things that you failed to see.
i am stronger player than you so there must be something you are not seeing.

Continuing on, your play off W 24 and W 26 are very strange. If you play moves just to trick your opponent (which 26 is, you wont see a pro play this in an even game. And I quote you "f you want to get stronger you must play like a professional on every move. many useless variations will do more harm than good." I think you are quite strong, so you should teach the beginners the correct move and not the trick overplay ones no?


first 24: it is correct move. if you think it's wrong then you are WRONG
second 26: yes it might be an overplay.. but professionals played such moves before plenty of times. i am sure you will feel uncomfortable if i play such move against you
because i feel uncomfortable and i am stronger than you. it is not a trick play.
i just wanted to finish the game faster and not have to deal with counting and prolonging the game.

Perhaps in this case you were actually stronger then your opponent and you got a great result, I can't argue with that ^^


:)

Lastly, your move 30 not connecting at the peep is also not good. Even though yet again your opponent did not punish you. Your move leave the crucial weakness at N16 making your shape into an empty triangle! and letting black connect underneath. And actually, you dont solify your outside by a lot. A black move at L14 would still had been severe.
As you are korean you should not the proverb "Even a fool connect at the peep" :-)


you are wrong again. connecting the peep is not recommanded play at that stage.
empty triangle can be strong. dont restict yourself with shape. read and feel what the stones are screaming at you. i guess that is why you are weaker than i am.

if you play by proverb on every moves the you will lose 100%

I hope you don't find me very rude criticizing your moves. We dont want beginners to get the wrong idea by the players writing incorrect ideas right? :-?


you are not rude and i dont mind. i might be wrong on some of my opinion..but probably not.

thank you.

Re: 32. Magicwand vs. Kirby

Posted: Wed May 05, 2010 5:31 am
by gaius
Magicwand wrote:
Fredrik wrote:Your play in the lowerright corner is terrible. First of all, your move 12 goes against the fundamentals of Go.

i believe i am stronger than you (if you dont think so you may play me :) )


Oooh, now that would make an interesting Malkovich game! Isn't this a challenge you can't refuse? :D

Re: 32. Magicwand vs. Kirby

Posted: Wed May 05, 2010 5:40 am
by Harleqin
I do not remember any of Fredrik's games, but based on what I know and what I have seen in Magicwand's games, I think that Fredrik can give Magicwand about two or three stones.

Re: 32. Magicwand vs. Kirby

Posted: Wed May 05, 2010 5:44 am
by Magicwand
Harleqin wrote:I do not remember any of Fredrik's games, but based on what I know and what I have seen in Magicwand's games, I think that Fredrik can give Magicwand about two or three stones.


wow.. another hater :)
i dont think 3 stones..
two .. maybe...if he is really strong.

and what i felt about his comments i dont think i have any problem winning.

and i am sure i can give Harleqin 2 stone and win easily. (possibly 3)

Re: 32. Magicwand vs. Kirby

Posted: Wed May 05, 2010 5:51 am
by Solomon
Really Magicwand? Fredrik is KGS 6d, Tygem 8d...you're KGS 3d, Tygem 5d. The numbers speak for themselves.

Re: 32. Magicwand vs. Kirby

Posted: Wed May 05, 2010 6:02 am
by Magicwand
Araban wrote:Really Magicwand? Fredrik is KGS 6d, Tygem 8d...you're KGS 3d, Tygem 5d. The numbers speak for themselves.


wow.. Tygem 8d is pretty strong. and number speak for themselves. yes.
but i still do not agree with his comments.

i guess magicwand is hardheaded person!

:)

Re: 32. Magicwand vs. Kirby

Posted: Wed May 05, 2010 6:04 am
by topazg
Magicwand wrote:i believe i am stronger than you (if you dont think so you may play me :))


:shock: :o

Fredrik is virtually the strongest non-professional that posts to this site (along with tabemasu and another player who I can't remember)... Speaking purely for myself, I think even in a Malkovich game I'd lose pretty much every time on 3 stones - that said, I'd love to see this game between the two of you, so please do set it up Fredrik :)

Re: 32. Magicwand vs. Kirby

Posted: Wed May 05, 2010 6:17 am
by Magicwand
topazg wrote:
Magicwand wrote:i believe i am stronger than you (if you dont think so you may play me :))


:shock: :o

Fredrik is virtually the strongest non-professional that posts to this site (along with tabemasu and another player who I can't remember)... Speaking purely for myself, I think even in a Malkovich game I'd lose pretty much every time on 3 stones - that said, I'd love to see this game between the two of you, so please do set it up Fredrik :)


yes tygem 8d is strong. i dont have to argue because the number speaks for itself.
but 3 stone? i dont think he will be comfortable with such handycap. i already played many strong non-professionals and 3 stones they refuse to play me.
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