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#158 - topazg vs speedchase

https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?t=5473

Page 5 of 10

Re: #158 - topazg vs speedchase

Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 2:27 am
by topazg
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 W:0 B:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . . 1 . . . . O X . X |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Ok, I'm going with this, I think it also has the advantage that there is some very complicated reading at the end of my anticipated sequences. I can't read anything that looks like a disaster for me, and the results feel at worst even, which means adding complications right now is probably a good thing. I can't help that feel this is a very topazg sort of bad move though - just a vibe I'm getting - and that the best result would have been one of "a" or "b" in the previous thoughts.

Re: #158 - topazg vs speedchase

Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 3:49 pm
by speedchase
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 W:0 B:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . 3 X . . . . O X . X |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Re: #158 - topazg vs speedchase

Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 4:45 pm
by Celebrir
:w22: seems really weird... It's just flowing around doing more or less nothing in my opinion.

Wouldn't K4 have been correct to put some pressure on the stone ?

Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 11:29 pm
by EdLee
For speedchase, a bit later, say after :w60:...? :)
speedchase wrote:I was thinking about just taking the ponnuki, and fighting,
but I think I can live in sente because he has to protect the cut, so I will reduce.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm11
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . O . |
$$ . . . . . O X . |
$$ . . . . O X . 5 |
$$ . . . . O X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$-----------------[/go]
Kyu players sometimes play :b15: (above, in the real game) or this :b1: connect...
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . O . |
$$ . . . . . O X . |
$$ . . . . O X 1 . |
$$ . . . . O X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$-----------------[/go]
...or this :b1: atari...
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Variation K
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . 8 . 2 O . |
$$ . . . . 1 O X . |
$$ . . . . O X . 7 |
$$ . . 6 . O X . . |
$$ . . . 4 3 5 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$-----------------[/go]
But pros do not play them, because compared to this joseki...
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Joseki A
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . 3 . . |
$$ . . . . . 1 2 . |
$$ . . . . . O X . |
$$ . . . . O X . . |
$$ . . 7 . O X . . |
$$ . . . 5 4 6 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$-----------------[/go]
...in the Variation K above, W effectively got the powerful turn :w3: in sente and B submitted with :b2:
(ignoring the :bc:- :wc: exchange):
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . W . O 3 . |
$$ . . . . B O X . |
$$ . . . . O X . 2 |
$$ . . O . O X . . |
$$ . . . O X X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$-----------------[/go]

For kyu levels, moves like :b15: do not decide the game. But for pros, B suffers a loss in Variation K
when compared to Joseki A. So when W plays the double-hane :w14:,
B basically only has two choices, (a) or (b), depending on which ponnuki B wants:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm14
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . a 1 . |
$$ . . . . . O X . |
$$ . . . . O X . . |
$$ . . . . O X . . |
$$ . . . . b . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$-----------------[/go]

Re: #158 - topazg vs speedchase

Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 11:54 pm
by Magicwand
ed:
this is terrorable for black
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm11
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . O . |
$$ . . . . . O X . |
$$ . . . . O X . 5 |
$$ . . . . O X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$-----------------[/go]

because it is gote
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm11
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . O . |
$$ . . . . 6 O X . |
$$ . . . . O X . 5 |
$$ . . . . O X . . |
$$ . . . 8 7 9 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$-----------------[/go]

therefore below are only possible variations
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm11
$$ . . . . . . 7 . |
$$ . . . . . 5 O 9 |
$$ . . . . 6 O X . |
$$ . . . . O X 8 . |
$$ . . . . O X 0 . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$-----------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm11
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . O . |
$$ . . . . 8 O X . |
$$ . . . . O X . . |
$$ . . . 7 O X b . |
$$ . . 9 6 5 0 . . |
$$ . . . a . . . . |
$$-----------------[/go]

Posted: Sat Feb 25, 2012 12:41 am
by EdLee
Magicwand,
Yes. :)

Re: #158 - topazg vs speedchase

Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 1:52 pm
by topazg
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 W:0 B:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . 3 X . . . . O X . X |
$$ | . . . X . . . . 4 O . . . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


As there are some fun comments, I thought I'd explain some of my thinking behind :w22: (for observers, obviously ;))

Extending along the bottom from Black's shimari is rarely a "bad" move, so even if the last two moves had been the following, I think Black is reasonably happy:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 W:0 B:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . 2 . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . . . . . . . O X . X |
$$ | . . . X . . . 1 . O . . . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Of course, with my thickness, I stand to do ok out of this too, but it seems reasonable to think that if Black manages to reduce the lower-right/middle, particularly in sente, this kind of extension is going to bring some reward to Black. So, if I respond simply by blocking:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 W:0 B:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . . 1 3 . . . O X . X |
$$ | . . . X . . . B . O 2 . 4 O . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


It won't be long before :b21: and :b23: are settled well enough for Black to play this marked stone, and I get very little from the exchange. I'm not even sure if :b25: is all that unreasonable, as Black's shape hardly crumples:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 W:0 B:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 7 . 9 . . . O O . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . 8 . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . 6 1 3 . . . O X . X |
$$ | . . . X . . . 5 . O 2 . 4 O . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I may be able to build up an attack here, but it's not clear to me how to use any resulting strength, and that area was supposed to be able to turn into points for me at some point. The reason I neglected blocking the other side, is I think that's only particularly useful if I can make the Black stones a target. It's possible I could play this way:


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 W:0 B:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 7 5 . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . 4 3 . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . 2 1 . . . . O X . X |
$$ | . . . X . 8 . . . O 6 . . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Simply opting here to make my points on the lower edge, but :w22: and :w24: don't seem to achieve much other than give Black's group more liberties, and thus more strength. As a result, my move instead aims at area "a":

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 W:0 B:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . a . a . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . a . a . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . 3 X . . . . O X . X |
$$ | . . . X . b . . 4 O . . . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Not only that, but I'm hoping I can induce Black into encouraging me to take the extension at "b", removing Black's nice extension, keeping my stones safe, and hopefully :w22: will turn out to be really awkward for Black to settle his stones acceptably.

That's the theory anyway.

Re: #158 - topazg vs speedchase

Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 11:24 am
by speedchase
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 W:0 B:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . 5 X X . . . . O X . X |
$$ | . . . X . . . . O O . . . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 W:0 B:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 2 O . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . 1 X X X . . . . O X . X |
$$ | . . . X . . . . O O . . . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Re: #158 - topazg vs speedchase

Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 3:37 pm
by topazg
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 W:0 B:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . 5 X X . . . . O X . X |
$$ | . . . X . . . 6 O O . . . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Nobi seems a bit mild, but it does have a lot less aji to fix:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 W:0 B:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . 6 5 X X . . . . O X . X |
$$ | . . . X . . . 9 O O 7 . . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This could get hairy... no need to give Black this sort of scope for interesting moves.

Re: #158 - topazg vs speedchase

Posted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 3:58 pm
by speedchase
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 W:0 B:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . 7 X X X . . . . O X . X |
$$ | . . . X . . . O O O . . . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Re: #158 - topazg vs speedchase

Posted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 4:21 pm
by Bill Spight
Black's thickness is making the White cap look questionable.

Re: #158 - topazg vs speedchase

Posted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 5:53 pm
by Unicorn
topazg wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 W:0 B:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . 5 X X . . . . O X . X |
$$ | . . . X . . . 6 O O . . . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Nobi seems a bit mild, but it does have a lot less aji to fix:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 W:0 B:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . 6 5 X X . . . . O X . X |
$$ | . . . X . . . 9 O O 7 . . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This could get hairy... no need to give Black this sort of scope for interesting moves.


In my mind, if you aren't strong enough to hane here, you weren't strong enough to try the cap in the first place. This situation is so terrible for white. Because black has the turn at a, white's stones can be disconnected and so they are pretty weak. It would be very painful for white to connect his stones in gote, so this will be a big endgame point.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 W:0 B:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . X X X X . . . . O X . X |
$$ | . . . X . . . O O O a . . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Besides that, I think that white could have capped if he wanted to after first pushing once to give his stones some strength.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 W:0 B:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . 4 2 . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . 5 . 1 X . . . . O X . X |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This looks so much better to me than what happened in the game. I'm not sure that I'd choose to cap in a situation like this, myself, but if I did, I'd definitely push once first.

White also talked about having an extension along the left side. If that's what he wants, I don't know why he wouldn't just play something like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 W:0 B:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . b . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . c 6 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 5 4 . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . X . a . . . . 3 2 . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . 1 X . . . . O X . X |
$$ | . . . X . 7 . . . O . . . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


After this, a and b look like nice follow-ups and black still doesn't have any eyeshape.

Re: #158 - topazg vs speedchase

Posted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 6:03 pm
by topazg
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 W:0 B:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . 7 X X X . . . . O X . X |
$$ | . . . X . 8 . O O O . . . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



Mmm, I don't know quite why I didn't expect Black just to push this way, my cap looks a bit out of place right now. However, I'm not completely clear yet on how Black's going to use it to attack, and I have prevented any really useful extension for Black. It just feels like I've lost half a move somewhere, but nothing too unhappy. I think blocking underneath at the beginning was probably safest after all!

I chose this :w28: because I think Black's more likely to profit from poking at the cut (or cutting directly later) if I hane, than if he takes the shape point now. I'm also toying with the possibility of blocking if he takes the shape point, as the push and cut doesn't kill anything (although it's a bit squeezy and awkward). I also prefer my corner aji this way.

Re: #158 - topazg vs speedchase

Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2012 6:13 pm
by speedchase
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 W:0 B:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 9 . O . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . X X X X . . . . O X . X |
$$ | . . . X . O . O O O . . . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


aiming at :b1:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 W:0 B:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . O . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . X X X X . . . . O X . X |
$$ | . . . X . O . O O O . . . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Re: #158 - topazg vs speedchase

Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 1:59 am
by topazg
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 W:0 B:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 9 . O . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . 0 . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . X X X X . . . . O X . X |
$$ | . . . X . O . O O O . . . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Well, it was the shape point or here, but as :b29: doesn't put too much pressure on my stones, I can use this opportunity to reinforce slightly I think. I'll be honest, I'm really disappointed with my choices so far. I've played 15 moves, and I'd call 3 of them outright mistakes already, which is pretty embarrassing so early on. I'd estimate White is 5-10 points behind, but that's not too disastrous, so I'm still happy enough with this much game left, but I'm going to have to get my brain in gear a bit more.
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