[go]$$cm41 Prisoners: $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , X O . . . O . X . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X O . . . X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X O X O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X O X O . . O . X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . O . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . O . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . 1 X X X . . O . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . O O X O O O X . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . 4 3 X O 2 . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Re: #188 Otenki vs DeFlow
Posted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 9:58 am
by emeraldemon
Looks like white needs to kill that black group to win. Otherwise black has way too many points, I don't see a good way to reduce black's upper left (40 points), and black could easily make 30 points on the right even if white gets in to the 33. In fact, if black felt good at endgame, I think even something like this could be playable:
$$cm45 Prisoners: $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , X O . . . O . X . . . X 1 . . | $$ | . . . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X O . . . X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X O X O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X O X O . . O . X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . 3 . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . O O . O . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . O . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . X X X X . . O . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . O O X O O O X . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . O X X O O . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$cm41 Prisoners: $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , X O . . . O . X . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X O . . . X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X O X O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X O X O . . O . X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 O O . O . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . O . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . 1 X X X . 6 O . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . O O X O O O X . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . 4 3 X O 2 . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Observers:
Judgement of the position The sequence up to was quite natural to me. Now a potential attack is possible on black. Black has two gote eyes, one in the corner and one at N5 (check the diagram below for the variation). So, black is not alive yet.
$$cm43 Prisoners: $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , X O . . . O . X . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X O . . . X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X O X O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X O X O . . O . X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 O O . O . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . O . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . X X X X 5 4 O . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . O O X O O O X 9 B O . . | $$ | . . . . . . 2 1 X O O . . 0 8 X 7 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$cm43 Prisoners: $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , X O . . . O . X . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X O . . . X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X O X O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X O X O . . O . X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 O O . O . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . O . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . X X X X 5 4 O . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . O O X O O O X 9 B O . . | $$ | . . . . . . 2 1 X O O . . 0 8 X 7 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
However, black has created a wall on the outside and I will have to stay wary of the cut at H14 while both black and I play in the middle. Also this attack has ruined any chances of me creating any territory in the center.
Direction of attack Because I do not see any chance to really kill black, unless there are severe mistakes, I think the best plan is to make profit while attacking. This can be done in two ways; a) leaning attacks (either he tenuki from leaning and I take profit, or he dies), b) playing developmental moves that also threaten surrounding. Because I don't see a good leaning sequence, I will attempt to surround him while developing.
Re: #188 Otenki vs DeFlow
Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 6:58 am
by otenki
$$cm41 Prisoners: $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , X O . . . O . X . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X O . . . X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X O X O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X O X O . . O . X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . X . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 O O . O . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . O . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . 1 X X X . 6 O . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . O O X O O O X . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . 4 3 X O 2 . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$cm41 Prisoners: $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , X O . . . O . X . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X O . . . X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X O X O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X O X O . . O . X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . X . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 O O . O . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . O . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . 1 X X X . 6 O . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . O O X O O O X . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . 4 3 X O 2 . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Observers:
I think this is a mistake in direction by white. Instead of pushing me down and making me live low localy while gaining influence on top he now has to worry about his topgroup again. Not sure if I read this correctly though. He might be able to reduce me though. But I can probably also reduce his lower part now because of the attack he made.
So jumping out and aiming at attacking his center group.
Re: #188 Otenki vs DeFlow
Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 7:50 am
by DeFlow
$$cm41 Prisoners: $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , X O . . . O . X . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X O . . . X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X O X O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X O X O . . O . X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . X . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 O O . O . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . O . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . 1 X X X 8 6 O . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . O O X O O O X . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . 4 3 X O 2 . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$cm41 Prisoners: $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , X O . . . O . X . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X O . . . X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X O X O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X O X O . . O . X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . X . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 O O . O . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . O . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . 1 X X X 8 6 O . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . O O X O O O X . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . 4 3 X O 2 . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Count Before I made this push, I wanted to have a count of the situation, because there might be other options available to me if I am greatly behind. The count however shows I'm ahead by about 10 points, excluding any points he's making with his upper right moyo and the points I might make on the top.
With the weaknesses in his top moyo I feel comfortable enough to play this way. The wedge between 45 and 47 might also be interesting later in the game. My major weakness still is the potential cut but I have to be comfortable with this, because I am not in the position to take gote to fix my weaknesses.
Re: #188 Otenki vs DeFlow
Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 10:45 am
by The Intrepid
DeFlow wrote:Before I made this push, I wanted to have a count ... The count however shows I'm ahead by about 10 points, excluding any points he's making with his upper right moyo and the points I might make on the top.
Wow, that's an optimistic count! I'm really curious how he got this result. However, I fear that if I ask him to provide details, his count might change, which could affect the game.
Re: #188 Otenki vs DeFlow
Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 11:33 am
by skydyr
The Intrepid wrote:
DeFlow wrote:Before I made this push, I wanted to have a count ... The count however shows I'm ahead by about 10 points, excluding any points he's making with his upper right moyo and the points I might make on the top.
Wow, that's an optimistic count! I'm really curious how he got this result. However, I fear that if I ask him to provide details, his count might change, which could affect the game.
I think he is assuming that he can reduce the black top right moyo enough to make that area equal, so that his territory on the bottom and top centre would be about equivalent to black's left side. Aside from the idea of reducing the moyo to an equal outcome, which seems far-fetched, I don't think the analysis is too too bad. I count about 48 for black's top left, not including the stones in question near the middle. For white, I think 40 is pretty certain, and 50 is not a far stretch on the bottom and sides before the push and cut, assuming there is not much fighting on the bottom right (a huge assumption).
That said, there is no way Black should come out of fighting within his moyo without making much more than white does, which makes the whole analysis suspect. In addition, the top group is never going to make a lot of points for white. It's purpose is more to devalue the area.
Re: #188 Otenki vs DeFlow
Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 2:34 pm
by otenki
$$cm41 Prisoners: $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , X O . . . O . X . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X O . . . X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X O X O . . 9 . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X O X O . . O . X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . X . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 O O . O . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . O . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . 1 X X X 8 6 O . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . O O X O O O X . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . 4 3 X O 2 . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
was quite natural to me. Now a potential attack is possible on black. Black has two gote eyes, one in the corner and one at N5 (check the diagram below for the variation). So, black is not alive yet.