Takemiya's Cosmic Go?

[Knotwilg]

I'm not saying that everything Robert says is wrong. I wouldn't be able to say that. I'm saying that neither he nor anyone else can be an amateur expert of the game. I'm sure he's knowledgeable about certain aspects of the game. However, it is doubtful that his selection of aspects, or the way he deconstructs and reconstructs knowledge, is the path to follow. It is quite certain that studying the games of Takemiya will reveal more and more understanding each time, while study of Robert's games will reveal more and more mistakes.

Unfortunately I'm an expert in nothing. Professionally I am starting to feel a deeper understanding in how to moderate a group of engineers, because I've done it a lot, read about it and thought about it. I need to test my understanding in many different environments though. But in this case it doesn't take one to know one. Go Seigen has been able, through writing, to convince me of his deep understanding and event transfer a tiny bit of it for a few days. I've never felt such deeper understanding with Robert's writings.

About the 9p who does not discern between 7k or 5d, of course, no 9p ever told me this. But, as a 2d I've always chuckled when someone made a big thing of improving from 15k to 10k. I can't tell the difference. When I extrapolate that idea to a 9p, I can easily imagine that the 9p recognizes the more combative player but thinks they roughly make the same mistakes.

[tchan001]

You realize of course that 9p doesn't mean understanding the totality of the game of go. It's just an indicator of strength in play. An indicator of strength doesn't really compare with the addition to the body of knowledge regarding the game. If you read about the hardest problem from Igo Hatsuyoron, it shows how an important overlooked resistance was discovered by a German kyu player. I think it's wonderful that RJ is trying to add to the body of knowledge about go.

[Knotwilg]

I also believe it is wonderful Robert adds to the body of knowledge. I have repeated that on numerous occasions. I also like my own contributions, at times, even though I am a lowly 2d. However, this is more due to my voluntarism, which is obviously lacking with 9p's, than my deep understanding.

There is one contribution every 9p makes to the public domain though: their games. It would therefore be ludicrous to study Robert's games, or mine or those of a 7k, to understand more about the cosmic style. Our games are full of mistakes a 9p's isn't.

For the same reason the result of our voluntary efforts to enhance the public library must be taken with grains of salt. Occasionally we will be right where a pro is wrong, such as the German kyu and the Hatsuroyon, or the teaching method of stone counting on small boards I favor, which the Japanese will dismiss for cultural reasons.

As a final note, we disagree about the 9p's understanding. Make it a big title holder if you wish, if 9p is not even distinguishing enough. You cannot simply take deep understanding and playing level apart, not at the master level. You will have amateur 4d who are good at reading and others who have a better theoretical understanding and strategy. But at the master level, these concepts combine into true understanding at a level that amateurs do not even start to comprehend.

[tchan001]

The real understanding of go will happen when the game is finally "solved" but that most likely won't happen in my lifetime.

[daal]

But at the master level, these concepts combine into true understanding at a level that amateurs do not even start to comprehend.

I wonder how many 9ps would agree with you - they were 4d once too.

[Knotwilg]

Barry Mazur on the domain of mathematics:

Before offering a concrete list of good “fields of acquaintance” I want to convey an idea of a friend of mine, who is a student of European History. He tells me that at one point in his career studying European History, he experienced an abrupt phase shift. Once you’ve achieved — says my friend — a certain critical mass of historical information, all of a sudden your view of the entire subject changes. First, your power of simply retaining information increases multifold; but more importantly, your way of thinking about the subject bears no relation to the way you approached things initially. My friend accounted for this surprising moment as a consequence of accumulation, perhaps to overload, of somehow-connected specifics that forced him to involuntarily re-configure—in a more meaningful way— his modes of organization, and contemplation, of the entirety of this corpus of knowledge.

I'm quite confident any 9p will tell you this happened to them somewhere on their path from 4d to where they are now.