I looked briefly over the game so far and wanted to add some quick comments, as requested:
is not severe at all, on the contrary, it's terrible. Creates a weak group for no reason and allows black to be sealed into the corner. just strengthens a group that was weak before. Instead of blocking with , white should think about r2, much harder for black to handle. Let's not talk about white's ponnuki should cut.
Re: #194 Skydyr versus DeFlow
Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 10:28 am
by DeFlow
$$Bcm51 Prisoners: White stones:0 ; Black stones:2 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . X X X O O X . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . X O . X O X X . | $$ | . . . , O O 4 . . , X O O . X O X . . | $$ | . . X . X 3 . . . . 1 X O O O X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O . O . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . 5 2 . . . O . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$Bcm51 Prisoners: White stones:0 ; Black stones:2 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . X X X O O X . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . X O . X O X X . | $$ | . . . , O O 4 . . , X O O . X O X . . | $$ | . . X . X 3 . . . . 1 X O O O X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O . O . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . 5 2 . . . O . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
For this move, I considered both pushing and this. If I push, I expect a hane on the lower side from white however, to sever my connection. Connecting my weak group in the middle would be so good for me however! That's why I play this.
The variation that I did not like:
$$Bcm51 Prisoners: White stones:0 ; Black stones:2 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . X X X O O X . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . X O . X O X X . | $$ | . . . , O O 4 . . , X O O . X O X . . | $$ | . . X . X 3 5 . . . 1 X O O O X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . 6 X O . O . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . O . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$Bcm51 Prisoners: White stones:0 ; Black stones:2 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . X X X O O X . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . X O . X O X X . | $$ | . . . , O O 4 . . , X O O . X O X . . | $$ | . . X . X 3 7 . . . 1 X O O O X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O . O . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . 5 2 6 . . O . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Now my two groups can connect.
If white would not have played 50 as in the game but at a, the peep aji would have been there, white could only live in gote (not in ko, as in the game):
[go]$$Bcm51 Prisoners: White stones:0 ; Black stones:2 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . X X X O O X . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . X O . X O X X . | $$ | . . . , O O 4 . . , X O O . X O X . . | $$ | . . X . X 3 7 . . . 1 X O O O X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O . O . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . 5 2 6 . . O . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
I don't think that's sente enough to prevent me from taking the corner, now that the fighting has died down. I have nice endgame at K2 unless black wants to give up sente for it at some point also. If black approaches the 3-5 stone, I intend to just extend nice and wide.
Re: #194 Skydyr versus DeFlow
Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 12:05 pm
by DeFlow
$$Bcm51 Prisoners: White stones:0 ; Black stones:2 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 9 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . X X X O O X . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . X O . X O X X . | $$ | . . . , O O 4 . . , X O O . X O X . . | $$ | . . X . X 3 7 . . . 1 X O O O X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O . O . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . 5 2 6 . . O . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$Bcm51 Prisoners: White stones:0 ; Black stones:2 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 9 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . X X X O O X . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . X O . X O X X . | $$ | . . . , O O 4 . . , X O O . X O X . . | $$ | . . X . X 3 7 . . . 1 X O O O X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O . O . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . 5 2 6 . . O . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Let's evaluate the position. It seems like white has taken a gote move to take the last open corner.
I now have about 25 points combined. White has influence radiating all sides. In particular the left area of the board will be the main focus of his moyo development. The lower left wall faces it and the 5-3 point on top is also aimed at gaining influence. The wall on the right is facing my top right hoshi stone, but the ponnuki radiates strength in all directions.
None of my groups are weak, so I have the priviledge to play freely. However, because of white's strength he can attack every of my weaknesses severely.
Interesting points:
$$Bcm51 Prisoners: White stones:0 ; Black stones:2 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . c . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . b . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X O O . | $$ | . . . . . x . . . . X . X X X O O X . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . X O . X O X X . | $$ | . . . , O O 4 . . , X O O . X O X . . | $$ | . . X . X 3 7 . . . 1 X O O O X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O . O . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . 5 2 6 . . O . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$Bcm51 Prisoners: White stones:0 ; Black stones:2 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . c . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . b . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X O O . | $$ | . . . . . x . . . . X . X X X O O X . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . X O . X O X X . | $$ | . . . , O O 4 . . , X O O . X O X . . | $$ | . . X . X 3 7 . . . 1 X O O O X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O . O . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . 5 2 6 . . O . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
a: This move takes away a nice approach and extension-combo in one for white and strengthens my own corner. Extending from influence is always a big move in fuseki. b: The same goes for this move. Also, White's wall is not thick at all. The small knight can be cut (or I can threaten to cut with for example x, a nice shape move) c: An enclosure. Always big.
I would really like to play at a AND b, because both moves seem so big. However I chose b, because I think Skydyr would like to play around that point next. I also know most kyu players (myself included) think they can attack and kill groups, but leave many weaknesses while the group leaves unscathed. Let's see how he will try to pressure me.
Re: #194 Skydyr versus DeFlow
Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 12:15 pm
by skydyr
$$Bcm51 Prisoners: White stones:0 ; Black stones:2 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 9 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . 0 . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . X X X O O X . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . X O . X O X X . | $$ | . . . , O O 4 . . , X O O . X O X . . | $$ | . . X . X 3 7 . . . 1 X O O O X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O . O . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . 5 2 6 . . O . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$Bcm61 Prisoners: White stones:0 ; Black stones:2 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 3 X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O 1 . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 4 . . . . . . . . O . O O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . X X X O O X . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . X O . X O X X . | $$ | . . . , O O O . . , X O O . X O X . . | $$ | . . X . X X X . . . X X O O O X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O . O . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X O O . . O . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
I thought he would keep pushing. I think he means to attack my 3-5 stone, but it can either make a corner enclosure or jump out to attack his original side group if he approaches it normally. If he reinforces the side group, though, I definitely need to start strengthening it.
Re: #194 Skydyr versus DeFlow
Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 1:21 pm
by DeFlow
$$Bcm61 Prisoners: White stones:0 ; Black stones:2 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 3 X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O 1 . 5 . . . . . . X O . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 4 . . . . . . . . O . O O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . X X X O O X . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . X O . X O X X . | $$ | . . . , O O O . . , X O O . X O X . . | $$ | . . X . X X X . . . X X O O O X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O . O . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X O O . . O . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$Bcm61 Prisoners: White stones:0 ; Black stones:2 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 3 X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O 1 . 5 . . . . . . X O . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 4 . . . . . . . . O . O O O . . | $$ | . . . . . 6 . . . . . . . O X X O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . X X X O O X . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . X O . X O X X . | $$ | . . . , O O O . . , X O O . X O X . . | $$ | . . X . X X X . . . X X O O O X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O . O . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X O O . . O . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Now I have another strong group and he is overconcentrated. I was pondering between this move and enclosing the top left corner, but some of those people who play this crazy game called go say a two space extension is having two feet on the ground. You cannot fight on one leg.
Re: #194 Skydyr versus DeFlow
Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 2:40 pm
by skydyr
$$Bcm61 Prisoners: White stones:0 ; Black stones:2 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 3 X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O 1 . 5 . . . . . . X O . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 4 . . . . . . . . O . O O O . . | $$ | . . . . . 6 . . . . . . . O X X O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . X X X O O X . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . X O . X O X X . | $$ | . . . , O O O . . , X O O . X O X . . | $$ | . . X . X X X . . . X X O O O X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O . O . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X O O . . O . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------