Back on track

tentano · Post by **tentano** » Tue Mar 03, 2015 2:13 am

If I were you, I'd be distracted by thinking "tsumego TRAINing" at least once a day.

It's a great way to get a lot of study done, too. Long commutes can be surprisingly educational.

Amelia · Post by **Amelia** » Wed Mar 04, 2015 2:34 am

tentano wrote:If I were you, I'd be distracted by thinking "tsumego TRAINing" at least once a day.
It's a great way to get a lot of study done, too. Long commutes can be surprisingly educational.

:-p Yeah, it's a lot of quiet time, mostly free of internet distractions.

This is one of my latest games. Lately I seem to only win or lose by at least thirty points.

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Fri Mar 06, 2015 1:00 am

Hi Amelia,

:b9:

What was your plan if :w10:

cuts ?
In other words, did you read out the result if :w10:

cuts ?

Amelia · Post by **Amelia** » Fri Mar 06, 2015 1:46 am

EdLee wrote:Hi Amelia,

What was your plan if cuts ?
In other words, did you read out the result if cuts ?

Hi Ed, thanks for looking at the game.

I had some follow-up moves in mind, but I did not know for sure whether those follow-ups would lead to a good or bad result for black, nor decided which one I should use. Way too wishy-washy to qualify as reading anything out. Playing the hane had a lot more to do with basic instinct. And while I did consider white might cut, I didn't expect him to.
Which, now that you mention it, raises some interesting questions:
- Should white have cut?
- What would be the best answer for black after the cut?
- Is the result better for black by extending on the fourth line?
The follow-ups I considered are below. I'll come back to it this evening and try to answer the questions above.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ $$ -------------- $$ . . . . . . .| $$ . . . . . . .| $$ . . . . . . .| $$ . . O X X . .| $$ . c X O O b .| $$ . . a . . . .| $$ . . . . . . .|[/go]

tentano · Post by **tentano** » Fri Mar 06, 2015 3:36 am

Some comments, hope they're helpful.

:b9:

Just stretch for 4th line territory.
:b23:

seems too soon to tenuki. S4 puts a good deal of pressure on that white group and secures territory.
:b33:

Q6 seems far worse for white, to me. There's also a cut at P9 whichnbeither side seems to have cared about.
:b43:

Apart from tenuki too soon, this is overstretched. N17 would have worked a lot better. M17 is for when you have a stone at P16.
:b55:

If you secure the corner instead, you're splitting white with a live group.
:b59:

So now white can connect and has an option on ruining your corner. C6 is really not very urgent now.
:b69:

How about C3?
:w80:

White has been forced to take the bottom and firmly close it off.
:w88:

This threatens to cut off the top right corner, too. Because it's not unconditionally alive, this cut is lots of trouble.
:b93:

You could have captured with N12. Unsure if it would still have been enough, though.

Overall you value corners a bit too little and your close contact fights are a bit messy. The tsumego should really help that a lot over time.

Amelia · Post by **Amelia** » Fri Mar 06, 2015 1:00 pm

I had a bit of trouble analysing the position (not coming up with much when it came to deciding the next best move for either opponent. Many, many variations and no idea where to start, or stop). In the end I used SmartGo and the GoGoD game collection to help out in suggesting variations. It came up a few times in pro games, but it was complicated and way over my head.
In other words, it may be possible for a more skilled player to get a good position out of this, but for me I'd probably have messed it up, especially against a stronger opponent as was the case here. I should have just extended. As tentano pointed out, it's fourth line territory, nothing to complain about.

Some things I came accross:

Amelia · Post by **Amelia** » Mon Mar 09, 2015 2:13 pm

Coming back to this thread, I realize I failed to thank you for your comments, tentano. Sorry for that. They were all helpful points :study:

Especially your comment about not valuing the corners enough is something that is causing me trouble lately. I think it's a result of several games where I ended up surrounded which lead to painful losses. Now I think "I want the outside!" But it's hard to find the correct balance. My last game is another example of this. I strongly dislike the result of the opening. I'm just not quite sure where I messed up exactly.

One of the things that confused me was that pincer:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B High pincer $$ ------------------ $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . 1 . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . 2 . a . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . 3 . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

It came up twice and I wasn't sure how to deal with it. I simply jumped at A, but I was unhappy with the result afterwards. Would it have helped to invade the corner right away, I wonder?

One joseki sequence I found went like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ ------------------ $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . 9 . . . . . . $$ | . 4 . X . 3 . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . 8 O . 2 . . . . $$ | . . 5 6 . . . . . $$ | . . 7 1 0 . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Which doesn't look bad, but black didn't play along that line anyway.

tentano · Post by **tentano** » Mon Mar 09, 2015 6:37 pm

My instinct says R3, but it might be too soon.
:w30:

It seems very good to play R3 now. O4 looks interesting, too. Black really should have played O3 at some point before you played R3
:w32:

Q18 isn't so bad here. You have 100% certain corner territory, with some exit potential left, and white needs to help O17 somehow so you get sente.
:w44:

How about F16? That lonely 4-4 stone seems like it needs some harassment.
:b47:

Seems like dereliction of duty. You just don't ignore a 3-3 under your 4-4 like that. E17 would be my next move.
:w58:

This is really quite big. Black loses the influence of that wall completely. This is really the attack you wanted at :w46:

.

This is a little overzealous. Stretch at D8 to protect against the cut. Black responded all sorts of wrong, though.
:b65:

This is far too timid. C9 is a far better response.
:b81:

Normal continuation is at S3.
:b95:

Hane at S17.
+100:
:b13:

K4 is much better, since it prevents this group from being shut in. A push at N3 isn't all that frightening.
:b23:

Completely misdirected. Poking into the middle is much more urgent. This move isn't necessary for an eye, either.
:w38:

Now all that influence from the black blob is wasted. White has already won.
:b65:

Should have been E17.
:w98:

P4 is one point better. If you have to connect, might as well do it the profitable way. Not that it still matters in this game.

Black made some really big, bad mistakes. A very cooperative opponent!

Amelia · Post by **Amelia** » Mon Mar 09, 2015 11:53 pm

Thanks for the comments.

tentano wrote:Black made some really big, bad mistakes. A very cooperative opponent!

Yeah. And that's the main reason I won :-?

Q18 isn't so bad here. You have 100% certain corner territory, with some exit potential left, and white needs to help O17 somehow so you get sente.

I definitely tend to misjudge that kind of situation lately. I have to work on that.

skydyr · Post by **skydyr** » Tue Mar 10, 2015 9:01 am

As some further comments in addition to Tentano's:

As early as :w28:

, I think white should look at something like O4, since black neglected supporting the corner and side stone here like he should. Slightly later, O3 is huge, making black's side stone into a liability in sente, unless black wants to lose the corner.

At :w43:

also, black neglected the corner, so F16 looms large to seal black in and ruin the top side.

After white has taken the corner around :w88:

, black has still neglected the bottom side, so a move like N3 is very painful. If black gets surrounded, it's not clear how he will live, and if he does, how much he will have to give black in exchange. After move 109, it's too late.

As a general rule with pincers, if you split, you are looking to attack one side or the other. Usually, the corner is better for the pincering side, so they emphasize it and you attack the side stone in some way. However, if they defend the pincering stone primarily, it behooves you to pressure the corner in some way, to seal it in or otherwise cause problems, and not just have a floaty running group that isn't doing much.

Amelia · Post by **Amelia** » Tue Mar 10, 2015 11:50 am

skydyr wrote:As a general rule with pincers, if you split, you are looking to attack one side or the other. Usually, the corner is better for the pincering side, so they emphasize it and you attack the side stone in some way. However, if they defend the pincering stone primarily, it behooves you to pressure the corner in some way, to seal it in or otherwise cause problems, and not just have a floaty running group that isn't doing much.

That makes a lot of sense. Thanks!

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Wed Mar 11, 2015 10:17 am

Amelia wrote:One of the things that confused me was that pincer:

Hi Amelia,

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Wed Mar 11, 2015 10:38 am

Hi Amelia,

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Wed Mar 11, 2015 10:52 am

Hi Amelia,

mitsun · Post by **mitsun** » Wed Mar 11, 2015 11:57 am

A little more discussion around the play in the lower right corner in the last game. Given the massive W thickness in the lower left, the space between the B stones at L3 and Q4 is dangerously large. This should be the strategic focus for both sides when playing in this area.

W opted to approach at R6, which is a fine move. If the colors were now reversed, how would you respond as B? A move like O4 to connect the two stones and make some territory seems natural, right? This is a defensive move, but it seems warranted, given the W strength to the left.

Instead B decided to pincer at Q8. I would not call this a mistake, but it definitely complicates the game, and could easily get B into trouble. The W jump to P6 is good, not because it escapes to the center, but because it keeps B split and makes an invasion around O4 very severe. When B defends the top, it is time for W to make good on all of these preparations and strike! Options include {P4, O3, O4}, aiming in each case to cut off the L3 stone. Compared to any of these strategies, simply jumping to N6 is lame. You need to be more ambitious than this! Kiai :rambo:

Later in the game :w44:

is exactly the same missed opportunity. The atari at F13 is free, then play a severe move at F16 or F17 to attack the B corner. Press your advantage, fight for a better result!

Life In 19x19

Back on track

Re: Back on track

Re: Back on track

Re:

Re: Back on track

Re: Re:

Re: Back on track

Re: Back on track

Re: Back on track

Re: Back on track

Re: Back on track

Re: Back on track