The future of KGS

[Kirby]

If we want to talk business models, the best business model is to not make a go server and to spend your technical expertise in a more lucrative market.

[speedchase]

If we want to talk business models, the best business model is to not make a go server and to spend your technical expertise in a more lucrative market.

That's true if your ultimate goal is to make as much money as possible, but if your ultimate goal is to make enough money to sustain a go server and 1-2 dedicated coders to supports it, it isn't. It's dangerous to assume that everyone's goal is always to make as much money as possible (even if it is true in the vast majority of cases).

[Bantari]

If we want to talk business models, the best business model is to not make a go server and to spend your technical expertise in a more lucrative market.

Well... I hope the creators of Kaya won't get too offended at your post here. I for one am glad they do what they do. We can all benefit.

But seriously - good or bad, best or not, you need to have something planned when you leave your job to work full-time on a go server. Its just common sense. No?

[Kirby]

... It's dangerous to assume that everyone's goal is always to make as much money as possible (even if it is true in the vast majority of cases).

I am not saying that everyone's goal is always to make as much money as possible.

I am talking about the best business model. Having a good business model doesn't have to drive your decisions in life.

[Kirby]

If we want to talk business models, the best business model is to not make a go server and to spend your technical expertise in a more lucrative market.

Well... I hope the creators of Kaya won't get too offended at your post here. I for one am glad they do what they do. We can all benefit.

But seriously - good or bad, best or not, you need to have something planned when you leave your job to work full-time on a go server. Its just common sense. No?

I think I agree with everything you mentioned.

[kaseki]

When one has a house project he wants to do himself, or has to do himself, but has to stay employed to pay for it, or to eat, progress will be slow. Anyone who doubts this should spend a lifetime living in and maintaining a house.

If KGS is not economically sustaining but the project is too large for one part-time person who has to be otherwise employed, then volunteers are needed for coding. This is typical of labors of love. While personal property like a house is not often an attractant to others as labors of love, a community like KGS can fit that role. I think the early days of Linux may provide an example.

In this model, the central person has to be a benign but strict dictator (rudeness is not actually a requirement) who like a ship captain oversees the efforts of volunteers (his crew) who make timely improvements possible. The stone-click sound issue is an example of where volunteers (my reading suggests that some have already raised their hands) can perform ship repair while the captain (not to be confused with The Captain) works on the larger issues, such as navigation.

So I would urge the power that is to consider this route. Scylla and Charybdis await those whose who allow the fog of hubris to mislead them into doing it all themselves.

kas

[PeterHB]

Edited quote

....If KGS is not economically sustaining but the project is too large for one part-time person who has to be otherwise employed, then volunteers are needed for coding. This is typical of labors of love. ....

... ship captain oversees the efforts of volunteers ...

I think WMS has responded something about this in the past. He essentially enjoys coding KGS as his personal programming project. He likes coding. He also does programming in his day job, where he has to do all the interaction that co-operation and management entails. He doesn't want to do people management as his spare time hobby. He wants to do coding as his spare time hobby. That's why he does the coding himself. For him, adding people isn't a plus. It would be a plus for them, but a negative for him.

Not a criticism of your post, just a perspective, to try to show you the other point of view.

[kaseki]

I can understand that view; I hope he has fun and I wish him well.

Judging only from what I observe, complaints have been raised that fall into the insufficient maintenance category. Certainly the client of a service has to take what he gets when the service is free or modest in cost, particularly one that he can always walk away from, but my perspective is that once one takes responsibility for something relatively public and highly popular, even if privately owned, maintenance is an ownership tax that one has a duty to pay.

It isn't my intention to argue about this, as it is truly (and perhaps unfortunately) peripheral to my life. I long gave up any hope in having enough time to study go at the level it deserves/requires.

kas

[Pippen]

It's coming...KGS browser-based. I guess even this year.

https://plus.google.com/108736506961432085848/posts

[Mike Novack]

but my perspective is that once one takes responsibility for something relatively public and highly popular, even if privately owned, maintenance is an ownership tax that one has a duty to pay.

However all should note:

I am a retired senior systems analyst, many decades in the cypher mines and perhaps 300,000 lines of code in my day. It is precisely attitudes like this which discourage me from volunteering much with free software projects.

If we volunteer to do this or that, we do not thereby become your slaves. We do not owe you anything.

[deja]

but my perspective is that once one takes responsibility for something relatively public and highly popular, even if privately owned, maintenance is an ownership tax that one has a duty to pay.

However all should note:

I am a retired senior systems analyst, many decades in the cypher mines and perhaps 300,000 lines of code in my day. It is precisely attitudes like this which discourage me from volunteering much with free software projects.

If we volunteer to do this or that, we do not thereby become your slaves. We do not owe you anything.

Then don't VOLUNTEER to do this or that. We don't become your gracious subjects simply because you've created something. And we don't owe you anything either, including gratitude.

So for you, WMS, and others who publicly express this "let them eat cake, zero obligation" attitude toward those who may use your toys, don't make them. Take your ball and go home.

Why anyone would use, support, or encourage the development of software from individuals with this kind of attitude is beyond me.

[daal]

Then don't VOLUNTEER to do this or that. We don't become your gracious subjects simply because you've created something. And we don't owe you anything either, including gratitude.

So for you, WMS, and others who publicly express this "let them eat cake, zero obligation" attitude toward those who may use your toys, don't make them. Take your ball and go home.

Why anyone would use, support, or encourage the development of software from individuals with this kind of attitude is beyond me.

Really? KGS has 80,000 accounts. That probably encompasses most of the people who play go in the West. Some people use it practically every day for hours on end. Others use it to teach and earn their living. And we don't owe anyone gratitude? Do you know what "free" means?

And zero obligation? Who wakes up in the middle of the night because the server has crashed and hundreds of people start in shock at their screens thinking the world has come to an end? Who gets hundreds of emails demanding more work be done for nothing?
I think you are confused about who is the gracious subject and who thinks they are the king.

[Bantari]

Then don't VOLUNTEER to do this or that. We don't become your gracious subjects simply because you've created something. And we don't owe you anything either, including gratitude.

Yes you do.
In Go, as in real life - if somebody works hard to give you something for free, something that you want very much, the appropriate response is 'Thank you, Sir!' and gratitude. Or didn't your momma teach you that?

The creator of a tool needs the community to use it just as much as the community needs the toy - but the relationship is NOT equal. One side works hard so the other side gets to have fun and play. I have no clue where you got the attitude that that when somebody creates something, for free, for you - they also need to bow down and kiss your feet or something. You seriously need to get over yourself, dude.

[deja]

Then don't VOLUNTEER to do this or that. We don't become your gracious subjects simply because you've created something. And we don't owe you anything either, including gratitude.

So for you, WMS, and others who publicly express this "let them eat cake, zero obligation" attitude toward those who may use your toys, don't make them. Take your ball and go home.

Why anyone would use, support, or encourage the development of software from individuals with this kind of attitude is beyond me.

Really? KGS has 80,000 accounts. That probably encompasses most of the people who play go in the West. Some people use it practically every day for hours on end. Others use it to teach and earn their living. And we don't owe anyone gratitude? Do you know what "free" means?

And zero obligation? Who wakes up in the middle of the night because the server has crashed and hundreds of people start in shock at their screens thinking the world has come to an end? Who gets hundreds of emails demanding more work be done for nothing?
I think you are confused about who is the gracious subject and who thinks they are the king.

No, absolutely not! I don't use KGS because of the "let them eat cake, zero obligation" attitude expressed in words and actions by WMS. I reserve and always will reserve my gratitude to individuals who recognize the value of, respect for, and obligations to a community of users that are dependent on the technology they've introduced.

There are other free alternatives out there from people who truly appreciate their users, are not condescending to them, who also maintain their servers at odd hours of the night, and who respond to user emails without a "like it or leave it" attitude. I express my gratitude to these folks and support them, living just wonderfully without KGS.

I really wish more people would give that a try.

[deja]

Then don't VOLUNTEER to do this or that. We don't become your gracious subjects simply because you've created something. And we don't owe you anything either, including gratitude.

Yes you do.
In Go, as in real life - if somebody works hard to give you something for free, something that you want very much, the appropriate response is 'Thank you, Sir!' and gratitude. Or didn't your momma teach you that?

The creator of a tool needs the community to use it just as much as the community needs the toy - but the relationship is NOT equal. One side works hard so the other side gets to have fun and play. I have no clue where you got the attitude that that when somebody creates something, for free, for you - they also need to bow down and kiss your feet or something. You seriously need to get over yourself, dude.

As always, Bantari, you miss the point... see above^^