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magicwand versus drmwc

https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?t=8049

Page 5 of 16

Re: magicwand versus drmwc

Posted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 8:32 am
by emeraldemon
@Magicwand
Thanks for the comments. I meant connecting at F6 instead of capturing the stone with E5 for :w24:

Re: magicwand versus drmwc

Posted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 8:41 am
by Magicwand
emeraldemon wrote:@Magicwand
Thanks for the comments. I meant connecting at F6 instead of capturing the stone with E5 for :w24:

that doesnt work
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 B has captured 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O 2 . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 O 1 X . . O , X . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . 5 O 4 O X . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Re: magicwand versus drmwc

Posted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 9:38 am
by emerus
White's advantage seems to be a lot more than a little one. Especially at this stage of the game.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 Better move order for blacks intended plan?
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O 3 . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 X 1 4 O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O 5 X . . O , X . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O b O X . a . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . O , X . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


:b17: is the only move in my pro-game database.

Re: magicwand versus drmwc

Posted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 11:17 am
by drmwc
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 B has captured 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X 4 . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 6 O 3 X . . O , X . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . 2 5 . X . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . 7 . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Re: magicwand versus drmwc

Posted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 11:22 am
by Magicwand
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 B has captured 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . O . 8 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X 4 . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 6 O 3 X . . O , X . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . 2 5 . X . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . 7 . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Re: magicwand versus drmwc

Posted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 11:38 am
by Bill Spight
IMO, magicwand has fallen behind. He has too many stones in the bottom left for what he gets from them.

Re: magicwand versus drmwc

Posted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 11:39 am
by drmwc
So, no surpises from what I expected (for a change!)

I'm very tempted by the invasion below next:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc B has captured 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . O . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O a O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X . . O , X . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I want to turn the large two space extension from the start point into a bad move. Other reasons this attracts me are also:

1) It may start a fight. (I like fighting.)
2) It's likley to steer the game away from big moyos. (I dislike moyos, other than where they can lead to fighting.)
3) If MW blunders in reply, I can also invade at C17 and he will become over-concentrated.
4) I may be able to link it up with the two central stones in some variations.
5) It may eventually activate the cut at a .

There is some risk that it could badly awry, so I'll give it some thought before playing it.

Re: magicwand versus drmwc

Posted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 12:14 pm
by Uberdude
Interesting, though not surprising given his style, that drmwc is thinking about a destroying move rather than a building move (my instinct in this position is to add a move somewhere in lower right corner). Hard for me to judge if this result is good for white or black, but I certainly think black can be satisfied to have settled his group with a few points and a share of the corner if we remember that this corner fight started as black not helping his approach stone and white attacking it, and black took time out from helping his stone to get in the L4 move. His outside stones are a bit weird now, but they are light and could be useful later for his own moyo (and j8 is better where it is than at h7) or doing things on the left or that g6 aji. So more siding with Bill than emerus.

Re: magicwand versus drmwc

Posted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 8:04 am
by drmwc
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 B has captured 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . O . 8 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X 4 . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 6 O 3 X . . O , X . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . 2 5 . X . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . 7 . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


As planned. I couldn't see anything devastating for W. One possibiliyt:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc continuation?
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . 5 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . O . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X . . O , X . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I get a quick life, and my two outside stones are distinctly irritating for W since they get in the way of his thickness.

Re: magicwand versus drmwc

Posted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 9:53 am
by Magicwand
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 B has captured 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 0 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . O . 8 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X 4 . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 6 O 3 X . . O , X . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . 2 5 . X . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . 7 . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

expected that move already

Re: magicwand versus drmwc

Posted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 5:29 pm
by Joaz Banbeck
Drmwc's last move worries me. I would have reduced, not invaded. He seems to be giving MW an opportunity for a splitting attack.
It is the kind of move that I try to persuade DDKs not to do.

Re: magicwand versus drmwc

Posted: Fri Mar 29, 2013 4:51 pm
by drmwc
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm31 B has captured 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , 1 . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . O . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X . . O , X . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


It is tempting to try something in the corner to make W ultra-over concentrated. However, it's easy to become very thin on the outside in those variations. So I've gven up on those plans.

So a vague lniky-move seems to be the way to go.

I don't think W can profitably cut my bits apart yet e.g.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , 1 5 . . 7 , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . 3 2 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 4 . . . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . O . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X . . O , X . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


7 looks good to me in this line, and I may become quite thick on the oustide.

So I expect this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . X . . . . . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , 1 . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . O . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X . . O , X . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I haven't decided what to do in this case. but 3 on the diagram is unlikely to be a bad move.

Re: magicwand versus drmwc

Posted: Fri Mar 29, 2013 5:47 pm
by Uberdude
drmwc wrote:So I expect this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . X . . . . . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , 1 . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . O . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X . . O , X . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I haven't decided what to do in this case. but 3 on the diagram is unlikely to be a bad move.


Hmm, 3 feels questionable to me as it doesn't aim at anything (that I can see: c15/c18 seem to fail) in white's corner which is strong, but leaves the top side very open to invasion. I'd have thought a move like h16 would be better to defend the top side. Of course the jump invites an invasion and fight and I suppose he likes that, but sometimes it's better to make some territory instead of fight everwhere and turn the board into dame.

Re: magicwand versus drmwc

Posted: Fri Mar 29, 2013 6:26 pm
by Joaz Banbeck
@observers:
drmwc wrote:...
I don't think W can profitably cut my bits apart yet...

( my underlining added)

Drmcw is piling up some dubious aji, IMHO. If he has looked at any of MW's games, he must realize that MW is not going to play a gote territorial move at D17 at this stage of the game.

White has several gaps up top and an unsecured corner in the lower right. The whole right side is unclaimed. Surely MW will find something more active than D17 in gote.


@Drmcw:
Did you consider reducing with move 29 instead of invading? It seems that then you would have not needed the linking move in gote, and you would have sente now.

Re: magicwand versus drmwc

Posted: Fri Mar 29, 2013 11:31 pm
by Magicwand
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm31 B has captured 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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