[go]$$Bcm57 Prisoners: None $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . O . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . X O . . . . e . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . X X O O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . O X X . . . . . . d . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X . . f . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . O X X . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O O 6 . . . . O X . O O . . . . . | $$ | . . a X 5 b c . . O X X . . O . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X O O X X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O X . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . O . X O . O O . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X O , X X . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O X . X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
These are the moves that come to mind (if this game is continuing), with e and f marking areas rather than specific moves.
Re: Teamovitch #1
Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2011 10:13 am
by Jedo
Alright then, I think basically our choice is to extend up or down. This begs the question of which is more important, the top or the bottom. If we go up:
$$Bcm57 Prisoners: None $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . O . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . X O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . X X O O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . O X X . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O O 6 . . . . O X . O O . . . . . | $$ | . . . X 5 7 . . . O X X . . O . X . . | $$ | . . 8 . . . . . X O O X X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O X . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . O . X O . O O . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X O , X X . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O X . X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$Bcm57 Prisoners: None $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . O . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . X O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . X X O O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . O X X . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O O 6 . . . . O X . O O . . . . . | $$ | . . . X 5 7 . . . O X X . . O . X . . | $$ | . . 8 . . . . . X O O X X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O X . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . O . X O . O O . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X O , X X . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O X . X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
This seems pretty troublesome; white can just slide into the second line if that makes better shape. This is compounded by the fact that I don't think extending up to the top is really worth that much, since it doesn't really threaten to poke into white's territory, and I don't think it makes much of our own because the thick white center group can easily gouge away.
So my suggestion:
$$Bcm57 Prisoners: None $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . O . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . X O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . X X O O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . O X X . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O O O . . . . O X . O O . . . . . | $$ | . . 7 X X . . . . O X X . . O . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X O O X X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O X . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . O . X O . O O . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X O , X X . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O X . X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$Bcm57 Prisoners: None $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . O . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . X O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . X X O O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . O X X . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O O O . . . . O X . O O . . . . . | $$ | . . 7 X X . . . . O X X . . O . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X O O X X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O X . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . O . X O . O O . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X O , X X . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O X . X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Now there's no doubt that this is objectively bad shape for us since we've created a symmetrical position and allowed white the next move, but I think the benefits outweigh the costs.
Re: Teamovitch #1
Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2011 9:37 pm
by Jordus
BIC
Jedo has the bottom part covered with a move so I figure this move is probably one of the next biggest...
$$Bcm Prisoners: None $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . O . . . 1 . 2 . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . X O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . X X O O . . . 7 . 6 . . . . . X . . | $$ | . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . O X X . . . . . 5 . 3 . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . X O 4 . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . O X X . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O O O . . . . O X . O O . . . . . | $$ | . . . X X . . . . O X X . . O . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X O O X X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O X . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . O . X O . O O . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X O , X X . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O X . X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$Bcm57 Prisoners: None $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . O . . . . b . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . X O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . X X O O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . O X X . . . . . . . d . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . O X X . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O O O c . . . O X . O O . . . . . | $$ | . . X X X . . . . O X X . . O . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X O O X X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O X . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . O . X O . O O . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X O , X X . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O X . X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
I like moving around a, b, c, or d. A, IIRC starts a ko for the corner. We might want to make some threats before playing that, though. B is just a land grab. C threatens a large turn, and makes us some points. D tries to eat that one stone on a large scale, but leaves black a good move around b.
Re: Teamovitch #1
Posted: Thu Jul 07, 2011 11:44 am
by tj86430
I'm going with my previous suggestion:
$$Bcm57 Prisoners: None $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . O . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . X O . . . . , . W . . . X . . . | $$ | . X X O O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . O X X . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O O O . . . . O X . O O . . . . . | $$ | . . X X X . . . . O X X . . O . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X O O X X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O X . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . O . X O . O O . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X O , X X . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O X . X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$Bcm57 Prisoners: None $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . O . . . . . . W . X . . z . . | $$ | . . . X O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . X X O O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . O X X . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O O O . . . . O X . O O . . . . . | $$ | . . X X X . . . . O X X . . O . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X O O X X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O X . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . O . X O . O O . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X O , X X . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O X . X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Why stop there? Let's threaten an invasion! This may be ridiculously greedy, but that's how the cookie dies in gote. Basically, I feel like we need SOMETHING on top to not make our framework look silly, and I want to see if we can get some of it in sente. If we're pincered, we can at least consider counterpincering and fighting for it. Or moving out and letting our thickness battle their attempt at a base. And even if black eats M12, K12 and then K16 looks pretty big.
Re: Teamovitch #1
Posted: Mon Jul 11, 2011 9:43 pm
by Redundant
I like both previous suggestions locally. I'll offer the move in the upper left with c18.
Re: Teamovitch #1
Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 1:56 am
by topazg
$$Bcm63 Prisoners: None $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . O . . . . . . 2 . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . X O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . X X O O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . O X X . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O O O . . . . O X . O O . . . . . | $$ | . . X X X . . . . O X X . . O . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X O O X X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O X . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . O . X O . O O . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X O , X X . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O X . X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$Bcm63 Prisoners: None $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . O . . . . . . 2 . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . X O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . X X O O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . O X X . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O O O . . . . O X . O O . . . . . | $$ | . . X X X . . . . O X X . . O . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X O O X X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O X . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . O . X O . O O . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X O , X X . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O X . X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
@Team:
The invasion looks premature, but this feels like such a big point, and if Black tries anything complicated, we have all those ko threats to use in the top left. Even the invasion works in that regard.
@Obs:
That left hand side is surprisingly important, because whoever gets to play there first can seriously mess up the other person's shape. I kinda wanted this double hane:
$$Bcm63 Prisoners: None $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . O . . . . . . 2 . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . X O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . X X O O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . O X X . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O O O 6 . . . O X . O O . . . . . | $$ | . . X X X 2 5 . . O X X . . O . X . . | $$ | . . . . . 3 4 . X O O X X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . 7 . . O . O X . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . O . X O . O O . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X O , X X . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O X . X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
your suggestion?