Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)

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jts
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Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)

Post by jts »

Q3
I'm not sure if this sort of probe works when there's no shimari; but I don't see why it shouldn't. If W takes influence facing up, he's massively over concentrated. If he gives us a position on the side, we can do a lot of damage to his potential.
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Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)

Post by daniel_the_smith »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm144 Move 143 W70 B65
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . X X . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O O O X . . . O . O X . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . O . O . O X X . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X X O . O O O X X . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X O X X O O X X O O O |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . O X O O X X X X X X |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . X O X . . . . . X |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O X X O X X X X . X X |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . X X O O X X . . . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . O O O O X O X X . X |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . . O X X |
$$ | . . . O . X O . . . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . O , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . C . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm144 Move 143 W68 B65
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . X X . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O O O X . . . O . O X . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . O . O . O X X . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X X O . O O O X X . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X O X X O O X X O O O |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . O X O O X X X X X X |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . X O X . . . . . X |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O X X O X X X X . X X |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . X X O O X X . . . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . O O O O X O X X . X |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . . W X X |
$$ | . . . O . X O . . . . . . . . . W W . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . O , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . c . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b a . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
I debated between these moves. I was going to pick 'a' because 'b' seems to commit us to living on the side, but then I saw the move on the board and 'b' looked best. My first thought was 'c', but that puts us in a bad position-- after white kicks, I think white can just pincer without defending the corner due to how close the :wc: stones are. I'm changing the move so Violence doesn't have to pay so much to change it, and because I don't see Q3 turning out well for us (if I were white I would try to kill the whole thing).

But I'm not sure about that. I'll be surprised if Violence doesn't change this...
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Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)

Post by Joaz Banbeck »

*bump*

Violence? It's your move.
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Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)

Post by Violence »

The one requires reading again... I need some time, sorry.
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Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)

Post by Joaz Banbeck »

Is two week enough? :D
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Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)

Post by Joaz Banbeck »

Maybe 3 weeks?
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Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)

Post by Violence »

Ack, I completely forgot this was my move...

I thought I already approved this, sorry guys.

I'll approve it.
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Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)

Post by Chew Terr »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm144 Move 144 W70 B65
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . X X . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O O O X . . . O . O X . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . O . O . O X X . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X X O . O O O X X . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X O X X O O X X O O O |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . O X O O X X X X X X |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . X O X . . . . . X |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O X X O X X X X . X X |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . X X O O X X . . . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . O O O O X O X X . X |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . . O X X |
$$ | . . . O . X O . . . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . O , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . W . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
My gut tells me that this invasion will be almost prohibitively hard to kill, but let's seal off the corner and give it a shot? Almost played the attachment, but decided that this would better prevent O3 from being sente. I guess this way, the O5 attachment is slightly better, but I still think this is preferable.
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Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)

Post by Magicwand »

looking at this board positon
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm144 Move 144 W70 B65
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . X X . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O O O X . . . O . O X . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . O . O . O X X . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X X O . O O O X X . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X O X X O O X X O O O |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . O X O O X X X X X X |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . X O X . . . . . X |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O X X O X X X X . X X |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . X X O O X X . . . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . O O O O X O X X . X |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . . O X X |
$$ | . . . O . X O . . . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . O , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . W . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
although it is very complicated yet..i think white is ahead comfortably.
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Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)

Post by Joaz Banbeck »

A quick count shows that black has about 60 to 65 points. We've got 10 to 15. So they are about 50 points ahead. Adjust that by the prisoner count, and they are 45 ahead.

If we let black live in the lower middle, it will be right next to all of the areas that we would need to make 45 points:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm144 Move 144 W70 B65
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . X X . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O O O X . . . O . O X . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . O . O . O X X . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X X O . O O O X X . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X O X X O O X X O O O |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . O X O O X X X X X X |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . X O X . . . . . X |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O X X O X X X X . X X |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . X X O O X X . . . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . O O O O X O X X . X |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . . O X X |
$$ | . . . O . X O . . . . . . . . . O O a |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . O , . . ? ? B O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . ? ? ? ? . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . W . B ? ? X . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ {AR N5 N7}
$$ {AR L3 J3}[/go]
Furthermore, the corner that younger brother wants to hold on to is not that big. Black can invade with 'a', costing us about 7 points, and finish in sente.

So, I think it is better strategy to push black's invaders into the already compromised corner, and keep them away from the bigger areas.

Thus...
I disaprove.

I'll have to think a bit to decide exactly where I do want to play.
My current favorite is N3. Current runner-up is O3.
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Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)

Post by Joaz Banbeck »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm144 Move 144 W70 B67
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . X X . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O O O X . . . O . O X . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . O . O . O X X . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X X O . O O O X X . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X O X X O O X X O O O |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . O X O O X X X X X X |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . X O X . . . . . X |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O X X O X X X X . X X |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . X X O O X X . . . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . O O O O X O X X . X |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . . O X X |
$$ | . . . O . X O . . . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . O , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . W . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . C . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)

Post by shapenaji »

Not Approved
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm144 Move 144 W70 B68
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . X X . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O O O X . . . O . O X . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . O . O . O X X . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X X O . O O O X X . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X O X X O O X X O O O |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . O X O O X X X X X X |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . X O X . . . . . X |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O X X O X X X X . X X |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . X X O O X X . . . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . O O O O X O X X . X |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . . O X X |
$$ | . . . O . X O . . . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . O , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . C W . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)

Post by jts »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm144 Move 144 W70 B68
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . X X . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O O O X . . . O . O X . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . O . O . O X X . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X X O . O O O X X . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X O X X O O X X O O O |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . O X O O X X X X X X |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . X O X . . . . . X |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O X X O X X X X . X X |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . X X O O X X . . . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . O O O O X O X X . X |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . . O X X |
$$ | . . . O . X O . . . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . O , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . B O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Wow, that's a good move, isn't it? It looks odd to me*, but seems effective. Well, I can't read out what's going to happen, but it seems dumb to tenuki (establishing a thick connection into the center would be big, but living here is bigger), so: contact -> hane.

I suspect this is what will happen next:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Move 144 W70 B68
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . X X . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O O O X . . . O . O X . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . O . O . O X X . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X X O . O O O X X . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X O X X O O X X O O O |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . O X O O X X X X X X |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . X O X . . . . . X |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O X X O X X X X . X X |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . X X O O X X . . . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . O O O O X O X X . X |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . . O X X |
$$ | . . . O . X O . . . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . O , . . 4 2 6 O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . 3 1 O 5 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X 7 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
I think this overconcentrates them. Their walls are 4-5 points apart, rather than getting "par" at 6.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Move 144 W70 B68
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . X X . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O O O X . . . O . O X . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . O . O . O X X . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X X O . O O O X X . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X O X X O O X X O O O |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . O X O O X X X X X X |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . X O X . . . . . X |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O X X O X X X X . X X |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . X X O O X X . . . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . O O O O X O X X . X |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . . O X X |
$$ | . . . O . X O . . . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . O , . . 7 4 . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . 1 O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 2 X 6 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
The cut seems good for us... we don't get any of the corner, but we can make a huge living group.

((This is just because I'm stupid. It's the same principle as a kick, just from above instead of the side.))
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daniel_the_smith
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Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)

Post by daniel_the_smith »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm144 Move 144 W72 B68
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . X X . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O O O X . . . O . O X . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . O . O . O X X . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X X O . O O O X X . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X O X X O O X X O O O |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . O X O O X X X X X X |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . X O X . . . . . X |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O X X O X X X X . X X |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . X X O O X X . . . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . O O O O X O X X . X |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . . O X X |
$$ | . . . O . X O . . . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . O , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . C O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X B . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
As far as I know there's only two choices:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Move 144 W72 B68
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . X X . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O O O X . . . O . O X . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . O . O . O X X . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X X O . O O O X X . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X O X X O O X X O O O |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . O X O O X X X X X X |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . X O X . . . . . X |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O X X O X X X X . X X |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . X X O O X X . . . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . O O O O X O X X . X |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . . O X X |
$$ | . . . O . X O . . . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . O , . . . . . O 5 . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . 3 O . a . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 2 X 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Live in the corner. Not sure if :b3: is good or if we should just play at a...
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Move 144 W72 B68
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . X X . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O O O X . . . O . O X . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . O . O . O X X . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X X O . O O O X X . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X O X X O O X X O O O |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . O X O O X X X X X X |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . X O X . . . . . X |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O X X O X X X X . X X |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . X X O O X X . . . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . O O O O X O X X . X |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . . O X X |
$$ | . . . O . X O . . . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . O , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . 3 . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 X 2 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Live on the side. Aji in the corner.

I chose the first alternative. I think in a normal game I would have gone with the second one, but I'm not certain that it will live in the middle of all that white stuff. Plus, the original 2nd line move we made was meant to force white to take a decent sized corner so we could live on the side. When white attaches on top like that, white's offering a larger than normal corner (I think), so I don't feel too bad taking white up on the offer. We should still be able to reduce, I think.

I don't like jts's move:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Move 144 W72 B68
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . X X . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O O O X . . . O . O X . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . O X X . . O . O . O X X . . |
$$ | . X X O O X O X . X X O . O O O X X . |
$$ | X X O X . X O O X O X X O O X X O O O |
$$ | . O O X . . . O . O X O O X X X X X X |
$$ | . . O X . . X . O . X O X . . . . . X |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O X X O X X X X . X X |
$$ | . . O X . . . . O . X X O O X X . . . |
$$ | . X X O X . X . . O O O O X O X X . X |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . . O X X |
$$ | . . . O . X O . . . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . O , . . . . 3 O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . 5 . . 1 O 4 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X 2 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
No aji in the corner and our stones don't seem any healthier.
That which can be destroyed by the truth should be.
--
My (sadly neglected, but not forgotten) project: http://dailyjoseki.com
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Joaz Banbeck
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Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)

Post by Joaz Banbeck »

JTS's move looks better to me than Daniel's correction. It seems best for us to lock black into a corner. Taking the corner ourselves is rather small.

I expect Violence to not approve.
Help make L19 more organized. Make an index: https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5207
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