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Revisiting Go

https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?t=10448

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Re: Revisiting Go

Posted: Thu Sep 17, 2015 8:01 am
by skydyr
Out of curiosity, why did you abandon the cutting stone at N10? It seemed like keeping white separated or later using it to squeeze white could only have been good.

Re: Revisiting Go

Posted: Thu Sep 17, 2015 1:25 pm
by Loons
The reason I never saved N10 was that I wanted to secure a big top like white already had a big left. My original plan for :b63: was to split the still kind of unsettled top right, potentially heavy right and hopefully bottom right. I got cold feet because if somehow the fight went well for white and white also got the next move top left, black would have no way of winning. So I took a trade (that my opponent seemed happy with, yes).

Re: Revisiting Go

Posted: Thu Sep 17, 2015 2:03 pm
by skydyr
Loons wrote:The reason I never saved N10 was that I wanted to secure a big top like white already had a big left. My original plan for :b63: was to split the still kind of unsettled top right, potentially heavy right and hopefully bottom right. I got cold feet because if somehow the fight went well for white and white also got the next move top left, black would have no way of winning. So I took a trade (that my opponent seemed happy with, yes).
I thought even at :b51: black could extend out, threatening to capture the two white stones, before he had to worry about the cut that was protected by the game move. At that point, at least, I feel there is enough invasion potential on the left that black doesn't need to start panicking as yet.

Later, once the upper white stones are more settled, there's less point, to be sure.

Re: Revisiting Go

Posted: Thu Sep 17, 2015 3:28 pm
by Loons
So my question is, in this case was it safer to attack white on the right v. building top and reducing left? I suspect both white and I were counting ourselves ahead around this point.

Re: Revisiting Go

Posted: Thu Sep 17, 2015 3:54 pm
by Loons
On some level I appreciate that I played soft here somewhere, but I have a lot of trouble seeing it.

After :b57: black top is more secure as points. I thought :w56: was an overplay, though I think I missed playing good sente when I tenukied to top left.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm51
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . . 6 . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 4 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 1 X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . X O . 2 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X . O X . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . O . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X O O X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . O . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O O O O O . . X . . O . . O X . . |
$$ | . . X X . X . O . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
This seems risky to me:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm51
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . c 1 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . b X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . a X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X . O X . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . O . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X O O X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . O . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O O O O O . . X . . O . . O X . . |
$$ | . . X X . X . O . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
Because I was worried white might be as crazy as I am:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm51
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 1 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 7 2 X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . 6 5 X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . 4 X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X . O X . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . O . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X O O X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . O . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O O O O O . . X . . O . . O X . . |
$$ | . . X X . X . O . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
The reason I'm interested in 63 is because:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X W . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . . X O W . . |
$$ | . . . O . b . . . , . . . . . X B W . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . Q . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X @ a . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X @ . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . X @ . @ . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . X @ . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X . O X . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . O . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X O O X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . O . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O O O O O . . X . . O . . O X . . |
$$ | . . X X . X . O . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
Top right might be a tripod + 1 group, centre right is just heavy and bottom right might live small(er). However for this reason I thought white would respond to my 'a' at 'b' and leave black overconcentrated.

Re: Revisiting Go

Posted: Thu Sep 17, 2015 8:00 pm
by ez4u
I think that skydyr meant extend to O10 with 51.

Re: Revisiting Go

Posted: Thu Sep 17, 2015 8:29 pm
by Loons
Yes, I got sidetracked with EdLee's suggestion sorry. The proverb *is* "save the cutting stones". During the game I was worried my stones would be thin and I had a potentially attackable dragon. Is this obviously not so?

Re: Revisiting Go

Posted: Fri Sep 18, 2015 6:29 am
by skydyr
ez4u wrote:I think that skydyr meant extend to O10 with 51.
Just so. Perhaps I should have been more specific.

Re: Revisiting Go

Posted: Fri Sep 18, 2015 7:31 am
by Uberdude
In a rush of kiai/blood to the balls I want to play here. If you get the sente squeeze a kill of 3-3 looks plausible. And at a glance trades look ok too. But mainly it's about thumbing noses.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm51
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . . . . 6 . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 4 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 1 X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . X O . 2 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . X O . 7 . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X . O X . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . O . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X O O X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . O . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O O O O O . . X . . O . . O X . . |
$$ | . . X X . X . O . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Re: Revisiting Go

Posted: Wed Oct 21, 2015 3:01 pm
by Loons
My opponent trash talked me during this game, and it worked I guess: (I was black)

I'm a little defensive because I may have lost a fight =_= But then my opponent gave up a ko and I played a small endgame tenuki instead of following up my ko threat, so I was not on top form.

Interesting case where Hirabot 2d forgot how to play:

Specifically what I guess happened is that hirabot didn't understand the L&D top right, and went into "give up points because I've won" mode.
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