Studying Go in China

Hushfield · Post by **Hushfield** » Mon Jul 21, 2014 12:18 am

Two of the older kids playing a game:

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When we've played for around 2-3 hours, focus shifts from games and reviews to go problems. Some of the kids are ridiculously good at this. There's a 10-year old 5-dan in our class that solved a sick life and death problem with a ten-stone under-the-stones tesuji in a few seconds. I'm dutifully working on my easy problems, as seen below:

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The other classroom:

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Hushfield · Post by **Hushfield** » Mon Jul 21, 2014 12:26 am

The teachers of Tianyuan Weiqi (Yan Laoshi is the person at the top, the rest are strong 5d amateur players):

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The school is located in a part of town that has a lot of small shops and markets. Here you can see Yan Laoshi buying a 24-pound watermelon:

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This school also has a traffic sign to let us play our games undisturbed, lest some rebel driver crashes into the ground floor of our building:

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SoDesuNe · Post by **SoDesuNe** » Tue Jul 22, 2014 12:19 am

Hushfield wrote:On the plus side, the problems are going better and better. I've done 1298 problems since I got here 17 days ago. That averages to about 76 problems per day, which is well below the standard of 100 problems a day the students set themselves here. I'll work even harder at life and death in the coming days, but am enjoying the problems more and more.

That's great to hear!
Since I started Shogi, I played under ten times but solved around 400 Shogi-problems ^^ Problems are just so much fun!

Do you know how difficult the problems should be, respective to your level? And are you encouraged to repeat the problems or is it understood that by solving it once you can also spot in easily in your games?

And - maybe I missed it - how do you study Josekis? Do you get a dictionary with the move order and just memorize and are encouraged to use it in your games? How many Josekis per day are studied?

This is really a great blog and your pictures make me miss traveling in China even more - thank you! : )

paK0 · Post by **paK0** » Tue Jul 22, 2014 1:55 am

SoDesuNe wrote:
And - maybe I missed it - how do you study Josekis? Do you get a dictionary with the move order and just memorize and are encouraged to use it in your games? How many Josekis per day are studied?

I wanted to ask that as well.

Also I find it fascinating that the "weak" player has to do the most problems with the least playing, where over here beginners usually get told to play as much as possible(though I assume a beginner in China might be a different level than a beginner in non-asian countries^^).

SoDesuNe · Post by **SoDesuNe** » Tue Jul 22, 2014 3:15 am

paK0 wrote:Also I find it fascinating that the "weak" player has to do the most problems with the least playing, where over here beginners usually get told to play as much as possible

Yeah, and I don't really like this advice myself. Although I guess it depends on the person.

The strongest Shogi-player in my country also gave me the advice to just play a lot (and study Joseki, roughly meaing openings in Shogi). But I really detest the feeling that I'm just pushing pieces around and in the end I inevitably lose.

Studying Joseki is a great way to learn about the first moves but like in chess there are so many different and tricky openings and blindly memorizing one of them does not bring you any success. So for me, the logical assumption was that I first acquire a working knowledge on popular tactics - meaning solving problems. That seems like an universal foundation on which I can build up everything else.

In Go, from a reviewing point of view: Everytime I try to review a DDK-game, I don't know where to start because almost every move seems aweful to me. To the point that a review is completely unnecessary because if the players just would solve Tesuji and Life-and-Death problems they would not play like this.

I guess as long as you lose your games mainly due to dying groups or such, a review cannot say much more than study Life-and-Death (and Tesuji).

Knotwilg · Post by **Knotwilg** » Tue Jul 22, 2014 4:36 am

I believe beginners should play a lot but on small boards only.

- 5x5 to understand the basic rule of capture; one group survives
- 7x7 to go on and discover ko and seki; more than one group can survive
- 9x9 to have a first intro to groups with two eyes, endgame tactics and liberty races; see the efficiency of counting territory instead of alive stones
(some stuff may appear sooner or later, these are just indications)

Small boards lead to shorter games, frequent iterations on basic tactics and concepts. You learn a lot here and little has to be taught specifically this way. You can of course add L&D problems to the rhythm. I'd do that as soon as 9x9 has become a natural playing ground.

Let beginners play a lot of 19x19 and many will drop out, others will get lost but hang in there and imitate pros or club mates but still get lost once the stones go walking.

Our friend Hushfield is not really a beginner anymore. Clearly his tactics need a brushing, for which joseki study in the morning and L&D in the evening may be a perfect cure.

Abyssinica · Post by **Abyssinica** » Tue Jul 22, 2014 7:17 am

I believe beginners should play on the boards they want to play on.

Knotwilg · Post by **Knotwilg** » Tue Jul 22, 2014 7:41 am

(moved rant elsewhere, admin or hushfield can remove)

Post by **Solomon** » Tue Jul 22, 2014 7:51 am

Just wanted to say the photos are awesome, but leaves me with the painful desire to visit China again

.

Hushfield · Post by **Hushfield** » Tue Jul 22, 2014 5:38 pm

SoDesuNe wrote:Do you know how difficult the problems should be, respective to your level? And are you encouraged to repeat the problems or is it understood that by solving it once you can also spot in easily in your games?

It took me a while to figure this out. Yan Laoshi is pretty hardcore in his approach to problems. The first set of problems he gave me was well above my level. I've seen him give problems to students that are too difficult for sure. Think of a KGS 15kyu that's here that was asked to solve Lee Chang Ho Life and Death volume 5. Just not going to happen. After we bought a bunch of problem collections recommended by Yan Laoshi, two of the students here (myself included) started doing problems that are not so difficult you can't solve them in under five minutes, but challenging enough you might have to spend more than one minute one them. One is speed-solving easy problems (up to 300 a day), while another focuses mainly on problems that are intermediate to hard for his level, meaning spending from a few minutes up to 20 minutes for a single problem. As you can see, we don't get told what level to do, but are presented with a range of high-quality problems from which to build our own study programs.

As stated before I do 1-5 minute life and death problems, currently from 围棋经典死活3600题(初级). Even though we've spotted some wrong problems/solutions along the way (bound to happen with a collection this large), I think this series is excellent and should get at least as much love in the west as the Lee Chang Ho series does.

Sample problems from my life and death study:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c Problem 294 - Black to kill $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . X . O X X X X X X X . . . $$ | . X O . O O O O . . . . . . $$ | . X O X . . . . O X X . . . $$ | . X X O O . . . O . . . . . $$ ----------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c Problem 386 - Black to kill $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . , X X X X X . . . . . $$ | X X X X O O O O O X X . . . $$ | X O O O . . . . O O X . . . $$ | . . . . . O . X X X . . . . $$ ----------------------------[/go]

The other students consider these problems really easy, but I'm really glad I discovered this collection, they're perfect for my level and help build a lot of basic shape recognition and work away blind spots in my reading.

For tesuji study I use 阶梯围棋综合棋力测试:手筋分册. Most of the 210 problems from Chapter 1 are solve-on-sight now, but that's because I've reviewed them a week after first solving them. I'll probably review these a second time before moving on to Chapter 2's mid-level tesuji problems, which are much more difficult.

Sample problems from my tesuji study, both are easy if you know the tesuji, but rather challenging if you don't.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c Chapter 1.7. Problem 2 - Black to connect $$ . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ . . , . . . O O X . . . | $$ . . . O . O . X O . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c Chapter 1.10. Problem 7 - Black to connect $$ . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . X X X . | $$ . . . . . . . X . O X . | $$ . . . . . O . O . O . . | $$ . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . X O O . | $$ . . , . O . O . X X X . | $$ . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . O O . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------[/go]

Reviewing problems is done in a very interesting way. Any problems we can't solve on sight, we have to put out on the go board. We mostly study by ourselves, but some of the students taking private lessons with Yan Laoshi get supervised problem study. They set out the problem, think until they read out the entire solution and all refutations, then place the first move. Yan Laoshi will pick a resistance by white (most problems except for the Lee Chang Ho series are black to play), and they play out the solution together. Stones added for solution of problems are done in the same way as variations in game reviews: the single-convex yunzi are flipped upside down, so they are easily spotted. If the student gets the problem wrong, they have to clear the upside down yunzi and play out the solution three times by heart. This is to remember the shape, and spot similar solutions/tesuji faster next time. I've started doing this as well, and it does work wonders for shape recognition. Sometimes, Yan Laoshi will stop at one of the 4-6 go boards in use in his house, and play out a problem with a student.

SoDesuNe wrote:And - maybe I missed it - how do you study Josekis? Do you get a dictionary with the move order and just memorize and are encouraged to use it in your games? How many Josekis per day are studied?

We all purchased the following joseki dictionary: 围棋定式大全. It consists of joseki which are logically organised, first by stone being approached (hoshi, komoku,...), then by approach move (keima kakari, ogeima kakari,...), then by black response (keima extension, ikken tobi,...) and finally by white's response to black's response. There are joseki (marked with stars for easy visibility and to show complexity of the joseki), overplays and underplays and how to punish them. We were told to learn the entire book by heart, then when we are done with it, start over and do the whole thing again. This will probably take the rest of 2014 (and maybe well into next year for the review) for me to complete. After roughly 20 days here, I'm almost done with the hoshi joseki. These are about 150 pages. The way I study is I start reviewing the joseki I studied the day before. Then I review refutations of overplays, underplays and trick plays. If I skipped some refutations the day before, I would add them in during review the next day. After about half an hour of this I move forward to study around 3-5 new joseki (just remembering the moves). Then I play around with all sorts of different responses (also those not in the book, to see why they do not work). You should think of it like this: The first joseki I learned are like the skeleton of joseki knowledge. I just know the moves. Every time I study an overplay related to that joseki, some flesh is slapped on. I then move on to build the joseki skeletal structure of other body parts. Each time I review, more muscle tissue is added until I reach the full body of joseki. Apologies for the Frankenseki metaphor.

I do try to apply some of the joseki I've studied in my games, which is why I open nirensei most of the time. There's a higher chance I get to apply something I've just studied that way. The more joseki I know for a position, the more confident I feel about finding a good move to handle a certain situation. I still feel like I need to review the hoshi joseki a couple of times before I'll be able to pick the "best joseki" for the board. Playing nirensei is actually quite refreshing, because I haven't done this since early DDK levels, and I'm rediscovering the flexibility of this formation.

I'm really glad people like the study journal. I'll try to update it with more pictures in the future.

Oh, and one last thing: I link to the Amazon pages for most of the books we use, because that's the fastest way to type in the Chinese titles and find the ones I'm looking for. If you're thinking about buying some of these books, please consider buying them from a go-specific book or web shop. As mentioned in another thread, this benefits the go community more than if all of us would just order our books on Amazon. Also, you're bound to get better customer service that way.

SoDesuNe · Post by **SoDesuNe** » Wed Jul 23, 2014 12:15 am

Thank you for your extensive answer!

Bad me could only solve problem 294 (a true classic!) and Chapter 1.7 Problem 2 on sight :O

I really like that you should find your own way when solving problems. It seems like the best approach (speed-solving for me, it is! : D).
The way you study Joseki is also quite interesting. At first it seems like memorising the bad way but after you described the book and how it also shows trickplays, overplays and such, I guess you can learn a lot about the shapes and the meaning of each move in the Joseki. Thus - maybe - subconsciously learning more than just the move order. Food for thought =)

Coincidentally, I wanted to buy the series your Joseki book is part of (the Tesuji volume should be superb!). But the books were so thick and heavy so I couldn't fit them in my luggage : (

I really wish I could buy those books in an easy and convenient way in Europe but so far I had no luck. I know some asian websites but since I don't understand the language I'm quite cautious and in the end I always decide against buying there ^^

RBerenguel · Post by **RBerenguel** » Wed Jul 23, 2014 12:21 am

Oh, neat. The first problem was in B class tsumego for Tuesday last week at the NGA camp, just before "detritus got real" and the level went up quite harshly. In any case, I remember struggling with this one and after some stupid 10 minutes (I think, I didn't actually check the time it took) of reading and re-reading I had to ask Jeff... Of course, he told me "under the stones" and I was enlightened. Hope it helps others here

After this last week, I think a sane mix of some "really hard" (5 min+, 10 min+, depending a little on the person) problems plus lots (20, 50, also depending) of easy ones may be a good tsumego mix. For "really hard" what ticks more for me is tsumego where the number of options for a first move is *very* limited (like in that one, so, less than 5 or 6 options for a first move) so I know I am going to eventually solve it, given enough crunch. So, it gets me to read somewhat deep, it may get me to read somewhat wide in some points but I know I'm quite likely not gonna be let down by not figuring it out.

Hushfield · Post by **Hushfield** » Thu Jul 24, 2014 8:54 am

The solutions to the problems from the previous post:
Life and Death - 294

Life and Death - 386

Tesuji - 7-2

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ . . , . . . O O X 7 . . | $$ . . . O . O . X O 1 6 . | $$ . . . . . . . 3 2 4 5 9 | $$ . . . . . . . . . . 8 . | $$ ---------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ . . , . . . O O X X . . | $$ . . . O . O . X O X O 1 | $$ . . . . . . . X O O X X | $$ . . . . . . . . 2 . O 3 | $$ ---------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ . . , . . . O O X X 5 . | $$ . . . O . O . X O X O O | $$ . . . . . . . X O O 1 2 | $$ . . . . . . . 3 X 4 O O | $$ ---------------------------[/go]

Tesuji - 10-7

Below you can find today's teaching game with Yan Laoshi

Yan Laoshi highlighted a recurring problem with my go today. I often give territory to my opponent to gain influence, but I then fail to use this influence in the optimal way. He likened it to people harvesting corn, wearing baskets on their back. After they get a cob of corn, they throw it in the basket. It's an efficient way of getting more corn. Now certain monkeys saw this and decided to imitate this. They got the corn cobs, and then threw them over their shoulder, failing to notice they didn't have any baskets. Get a cob of corn, throw it away. Get one more, throw it away. Basically, I'm a monkey. (The harsh things one has to endure here :mrgreen:

) I get influence, but then let invading stones live too easily. I get more influence in another part of the board in attacking those stones though, but then fail to use that influence. I get some more, then fail to use that as well. Get the corn, throw it away. But how does one keep the corn? Improve your reading to the point where you can use the influence better. You guessed it: more problems.

As Yan Laoshi told one of the students that seldom takes breaks: studying go is like climbing a mountain. If you don't take a break every once in a while, you'll fall off before you reach the top. Very deep stuff. So after a celebratory king of the hill 10 second blitz tournament for the last night for two of the students here, the boys pulled some pranks. We found a picture of one of the previous students (we've been calling him our undercover room mate). Our room mate, however, does not smile. In fact he looks like a very serious gentleman. So we went out, had our pictures taken (in very serious, gentlemen-like fashion) and hid them somewhere in the apartment with our undercover roomie's portrait. So if you decide to come here, you may just stumble upon five very serious looking gentlemen, hidden where you least expect them.

Knotwilg · Post by **Knotwilg** » Thu Jul 24, 2014 9:10 am

I adore the prank. The part I did not get is if the serious room mate took part in the prank and if he did, why he still doesn't smile. Is it a physical incapacity or a pose?

Even if it's a teaching game, 5 stones against a pro is not much. We make so many mistakes that they don't have to work very hard to win, which allows them to offer you some opportunities to learn, even with 5 stones.

BTW, I found all the problems. Me too I took most time with the last one, where the first move is evident once you found it (or peeked at it). Number three is a well known shape to me. In n°2 I somehow "know" the first move, some past L&D study paying off I guess. And n° 1 is a one way street only at first it looks like a dead end, until you spot the tesuji, well known in itself but somewhat hidden "under the stones".

Thanks as always for your great reports and the wild discussions that spin off from it

Hushfield · Post by **Hushfield** » Thu Jul 24, 2014 10:17 pm

Knotwilg: our "serious" undercover room mate is not a person at all. It's just a photograph of a person that studied here some time ago, but we've never met. We decided to follow his example and leave a souvenir fot future students.

Today's teaching game with Yan Laoshi. It was a relatively short game (in moves):

Afterwards the discussion focussed mainly on the difference between a crude move and a forcing move. I omitted forcing moves because I thought they were crude, and made crude moves because I thought they were forcing. When I asked him how to distinguish the two, Yan Laoshi phrased it in the following way: "A forcing move will gain you something, even if your opponent answers. A crude move won't, and often loses liberties or creates bad shape for the side who makes it."

Life In 19x19

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Re: Studying Go in China [21/07: updated with new pictures]

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Re: Studying Go in China [21/07: updated with new pictures]

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