Life In 19x19

Life in 19x19. Go, Weiqi, Baduk... Thats the life.
https://lifein19x19.com/

Who stands better in this fuseki?

https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?t=10867

Page 6 of 15

Re: Who stands better in this fuseki?

Posted: Wed Feb 11, 2015 12:07 pm
by Pippen
@bill: Is this your idea?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , 1 . . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . 3 . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Re: Who stands better in this fuseki?

Posted: Wed Feb 11, 2015 6:38 pm
by Bill Spight
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , 1 . . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . 3 . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . 5 . . . . . . . 4 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


I think that, given the Black wall, White should make a base.

Re: Who stands better in this fuseki?

Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2015 5:55 pm
by Pippen
Here's another situation that often occurs in one way or another in my Split Fusekis where I don't know if I play sound. Please jump to move 87. I am interested in the situation on the right side and I wanna know basically what to do here as White and if my approach (move 88-94) was OK or not. I think it was not OK, because my upper right goup is potentially dead and I should have made sure it lives.

Re: Who stands better in this fuseki?

Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2015 7:17 pm
by mitsun
I think the forcing sequence 88-93 was good to create some aji in sente. At move 94, you can go back and defend the corner. B does not appear to have a severe attack on your cutting stones, and by living they will erase any potential B territory in this area.

Opening another battle front at move 94 seems like an overplay. First, if B gets a reasonable result in sente, which seems likely, he can go back to kill your corner. Second, you now have three weak groups on the board, so the danger is extreme. Third, your invasion takes a large risk to destroy a relatively small B territory. If you really want to play first in this area, I would prefer something like P6 or Q6, which safely expands your own position while reducing your opponent. Finally, I think you are well ahead on territory at this point, so safe conservative play seems warranted.

Re: Who stands better in this fuseki?

Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2015 8:32 pm
by Bill Spight
IMO the White invasion at R-17 is problematic.

Here is how I rank other alternatives.

1) The boshi at O-06. This play strengthens the White corner and threatens the Black side. Also, it is on the frontier of frameworks. White's framework is not so big, but White aims at L-05.

2) The one space jump at O-15. The frontier of frameworks. Definitely superior to the 3-3 invasion, IMO. Not as good as O-06, I think, because White is not so thin and Black is stronger on the upper right side.

3) The invasion at R-08. Problematic because of White's thinness, but Black is not as strong on the lower right as on the upper right. Still better than the R-17 invasion, for that reason.

Tip: Styles can be applied quickly to selected text.

Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2015 9:19 pm
by ez4u
Luckily for White, Black kills himself with 121 at O3. If Black continues as below what does White do?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . X O O . O . . . O . . X O X X O . . |
$$ | . . X . O X O O . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . X . . . X O X O . . . . . . X O O . |
$$ | . . . X . X X X . . . . . O . O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . |
$$ | X . X X O . . . . . . . . . X . X O . |
$$ | . X O O X O . . . . . . . . . X O . O |
$$ | . O . . . . O . . . . . . . . X O X O |
$$ | . O X X O . O X . . . . . . . X O X . |
$$ | . . O . . O X X X . . . . . . X O O O |
$$ | . . . O O X X O . . . . . O O O X X . |
$$ | . . O X X O X O . . . . . O X X X . . |
$$ | . . O . . O X O X X . . . 2 X O O . . |
$$ | . . X X X X X O O O . O . . 1 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


But all this drama should have been avoided by Black. Instead of wasting time connecting at P11 with 115, shouldn't Black just hane at T7 below? If White cuts, Black has time to capture the stones.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . X O O . O . . . O . . X O X X O . . |
$$ | . . X . O X O O . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . X . . . X O X O . . . . . . X O O . |
$$ | . . . X . X X X . . . . . O . O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . |
$$ | X . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . X O O X O . . . . . . . . . X O . O |
$$ | . O . . . . O . . . . . . . . X O X 1 |
$$ | . O X X O . O X . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O . . O X X X . . . . . . X O O 2 |
$$ | . . . O O X X O . . . . . O O O X X . |
$$ | . . O X X O X O . . . . . . X X X . . |
$$ | . . O . . O X O X X . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . X X X X X O O O . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Yet all this was unreasonable for Black I think. White's extension at 106 looks slack. What about the hane below? The ladder if Black cuts and plays a second atari looks broken to me. Black has no time to rescue the two key stones on the side.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . X O O . O . . . O . . X O X X O . . |
$$ | . . X . O X O O . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . X . . . X O X O . . . . . . X O O . |
$$ | . . . X . X X X . . . . . O . O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | X . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O X O . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . O . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . O X X O . O X . . . . . . 6 X O . . |
$$ | . . O . . O X X X . . . . 5 4 X O O . |
$$ | . . . O O X X O . . . . . 3 O O B B . |
$$ | . . O X X O X O . . . . . 2 1 X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O X O X X . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . X X X X X O O O . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Re: Kirby's Study Journal

Posted: Fri Feb 13, 2015 12:02 am
by ez4u
Oops! My mistake. In the last variation above the ladder after two pushes is broken but the one after three pushes works! I think that White has some problems here.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . X O O . O . . . O . . X O X X O . . |
$$ | . . X . O X O O . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . X . . . X O X O . . . . . . X O O . |
$$ | . . . X . X X X . . . . . O . O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | X . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O X O . . . . . . . . 2 X . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . O . . . . . . . 1 X O . . |
$$ | . O X X O . O X . . . . . X O X O . . |
$$ | . . O . . O X X X . . . . X O X O O . |
$$ | . . . O O X X O . . . . . X O O X X . |
$$ | . . O X X O X O . . . . . O X X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O X O X X . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . X X X X X O O O . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Re: Who stands better in this fuseki?

Posted: Fri Feb 13, 2015 1:34 am
by Uberdude
Can you play q13 at r13 ?

Re: Who stands better in this fuseki?

Posted: Fri Feb 13, 2015 2:42 am
by peti29
To take a shot at this without looking at the answers:
I think at 22 black stands better. Territory seems even but it's black's turn and the lonely black stone seems better placed (in terms of territory) than the lonely white stone. (Though I got to give that the white top has the largest potential.)

And now to read up on the "solution" :).

Re: Who stands better in this fuseki?

Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2015 4:35 pm
by Pippen
I have this new idea to play 6 instead of making a base on the right side or approaching another stone and wonder if it's a playable thing or a distaster (it's obviously not the best move available). I played a little around and can't see a clear refutation, can u show a sequence that punishes White? (p.s.: If a from black then b from White)
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 4 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a 6 . . |
$$ | . . . 5 . . . . . , . . . . . , 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Re: Who stands better in this fuseki?

Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2015 4:42 pm
by Bill Spight
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 4 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . |
$$ | . . . 5 . . . . . , . . . . . 7 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Reference diagram
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 4 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . |
$$ | . . . 5 . . . . . , . . . . . 3 7 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Re: Who stands better in this fuseki?

Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2015 5:09 pm
by Pippen
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]%%w
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . 1 X . . |
$$ | . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
That looks good from White's perspective or am I mistaken?

Re: Who stands better in this fuseki?

Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2015 6:00 pm
by DrStraw
Pippen wrote:
That looks good from White's perspective or am I mistaken?
I think you are mistaken. That lower right is going to play a much bigger part in the game than you realize.

Re: Who stands better in this fuseki?

Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2015 8:16 pm
by Shaddy
you're super mistaken

Re: Who stands better in this fuseki?

Posted: Thu Mar 19, 2015 12:50 am
by Uberdude
All of black's stones look sensible but 1 of white's looks silly.
All times are UTC-07:00
Page 6 of 15

Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Limited