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#244 Bill vs Ed

https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?t=11002

Page 6 of 22

Posted: Fri Nov 07, 2014 2:34 am
by EdLee
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm41
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . . O . . X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . O . |
$$ | . . X X . O . . . , . . . . O X X O . |
$$ | . . O . X O . . . X . . X X X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

( Local time: Friday Nov 7, 2014. 5:33 pm. )

Re: #244 Bill vs Ed

Posted: Fri Nov 07, 2014 6:31 am
by Aidoneus
Trouble!
Right here in Ebony City.
Trouble with a "T"
And that rhymes with "P"
And that stands for PyeSeok!

I'm covering for another professor this morning, so I'll check back this afternoon (CST). No need to hurry, I'll just bandage up my gnawed fingertips...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm42
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . . O . . X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . O . |
$$ | . . X X . O . . . , . . . . O X X O . |
$$ | . . O . X O . . . X . . X X X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


I agonized over playing this move or F9. If F9, however, I didn't like the fight after White plays C6. Maybe I'm deluded but I believe that I am still ahead, so I think that I should avoid unnecessary fights. I briefly considered capping at K15, but I think the stone can squirm too much and may still connect out to the right and gouge out more territory. (Yeah, as fearful as I am, don't you wonder how I get out my door?) I still want to play moves at R18, S6, and B3. Someday I hope to tenuki! BTW, I forgot to mention that by playing at C16, Ed lead me to block the left side--yeah, it's all his fault, I'm innocent I tell ya--so now the stone at G17 feels off slightly.

Re:

Posted: Fri Nov 07, 2014 7:33 am
by Bill Spight
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm41
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . . O . . X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . O . |
$$ | . . X X . O . . . , . . . . O X X O . |
$$ | . . O . X O . . . X . . X X X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


I guess Ed didn't want to take gote. :lol:

Edit: Unhidden.

Re: #244 Bill vs Ed

Posted: Fri Nov 07, 2014 7:58 am
by Bill Spight
Aidoneus wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm42
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . . O . . X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . O . |
$$ | . . X X . O . . . , . . . . O X X O . |
$$ | . . O . X O . . . X . . X X X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


I agonized over playing this move or F9. If F9, however, I didn't like the fight after White plays C6.


Continuing that train of thought, how can you prevent White from playing C-06, without strengthening White? The question answers itself, doesn't it?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm42
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . . O . . X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . B . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . O . |
$$ | . . B B . O . . . , . . . . O X X O . |
$$ | . . O . X O . . . X . . X X X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


:b42: forms a strong shape called the table shape with the :bc: stones. In addition, it threatens to connect underneath with :b44:. (Not that Black should make that play soon, but it is an option.)

I might worry that :b42: is too passive, but it would be bothersome if White played there, and it is an attacking play, since it leaves the :wc: stone without a base. Besides, it is a 6 stone game. :)

Maybe I'm deluded but I believe that I am still ahead, so I think that I should avoid unnecessary fights.


That's not a delusion, it's a non sequitur. ;) You are still ahead, but that does not mean that you should avoid fights. In fact, the way to solidify a lead is by attacking, as a rule. To echo Ben Hogan, you develop your power by using it. To echo Sakata in Killer of Go, you won't become a killer if you don't try to kill.

Edit: Unhidden.

Posted: Fri Nov 07, 2014 8:06 am
by EdLee
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm43
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . . O . . X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . O . |
$$ | . . X X . O . . . , . . . . O X X O . |
$$ | . . O . X O . . . X . . X X X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

( Local time: Friday Nov 7, 2014. 11:06 pm. )

Re: #244 Bill vs Ed

Posted: Fri Nov 07, 2014 8:14 am
by paK0
Is Ed treating this as a teaching game or is he actually trying to win? He is probably several ranks stronger then me, but even if its a handicap game, giving black influence from 4 corners and then playing tenuki to start a second weak group seems to be asking for severe punishment

Re: #244 Bill vs Ed

Posted: Fri Nov 07, 2014 9:09 am
by Bill Spight
paK0 wrote:
Is Ed treating this as a teaching game or is he actually trying to win? He is probably several ranks stronger then me, but even if its a handicap game, giving black influence from 4 corners and then playing tenuki to start a second weak group seems to be asking for severe punishment


The saying is that in a high handicap game White's job is to make it close. :) White's job is also to give Black problems. That is appropriate whether the object is to teach or to win. They are not mutually exclusive.

Now, my approach to high handicap games is not to give Black influence and then erase it. But, IMHO, Ed's invasion, :w41:, is entirely appropriate. Leaving weak, even killable stones and groups around is necessary for White in high handicap games. Only us women and children in the fort, I used to say. ;) If Black can kill or mount a strong attack, more power to him or her. But if Black can do so, why is White giving a high handicap? ;)

Edit: Unhidden.

Re: #244 Bill vs Ed

Posted: Fri Nov 07, 2014 11:18 am
by Aidoneus
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm44
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . . O . . X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . 1 . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . O . |
$$ | . . X X . O . . . , . . . . O X X O . |
$$ | . . O . X O . . . X . . X X X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


Bill keeps telling me to divide and conquer. So, instead of jumping elsewhere, I really only considered this move.

Re: #244 Bill vs Ed

Posted: Fri Nov 07, 2014 11:39 am
by Bill Spight
I was going to praise :b44: as good intuition, but it turns out that it is explicit knowledge. ;) Let me take a bow. :D

Edit: Unhidden.

Re: #244 Bill vs Ed

Posted: Fri Nov 07, 2014 11:53 am
by paK0
Bill Spight wrote:I was going to praise :b44: as good intuition, but it turns out that it is explicit knowledge. ;) Let me take a bow. :D


And who doesn't like being quoted ;)

Re: #244 Bill vs Ed

Posted: Fri Nov 07, 2014 12:35 pm
by skydyr
paK0 wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:I was going to praise :b44: as good intuition, but it turns out that it is explicit knowledge. ;) Let me take a bow. :D


And who doesn't like being quoted ;)

Perhaps we need WWBD? bracelets now

Re: #244 Bill vs Ed

Posted: Fri Nov 07, 2014 2:42 pm
by SamT
skydyr wrote:
Perhaps we need WWBD? bracelets now


I prefer "What Would Lee Sedol Do?" WWLSD!

Re: #244 Bill vs Ed

Posted: Fri Nov 07, 2014 2:52 pm
by paK0
SamT wrote:
I prefer "What Would Lee Sedol Do?" WWLSD!


The answer is always: "Something crazy"

WWBD is actually a cute idea, and since I don't have a signature yet :clap:

Re: #244 Bill vs Ed

Posted: Fri Nov 07, 2014 3:00 pm
by Aidoneus
You know how sometimes when you turn your back on your students you hear them giggling about something, but they stop when you turn around? :lol:

I look forward to reading the remarks later! :shock:

Posted: Fri Nov 07, 2014 10:17 pm
by EdLee
I was looking at :black: (a) and :black: (b), instead of :b42: in the game:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . . O . . X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . O . |
$$ | . . X X . O . . . , . . . . O X X O . |
$$ | . . O . X O . . . X . . X X X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
The variations from :black: (a) or :black: (b) looked pretty good for B.

( Local time: Sat Nov 8, 2014. 1:16 pm. )
All times are UTC-07:00
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