Life In 19x19

needs to come in between the K4 and Q4 stones, to help the strong group you have (to the left) start to operate in your favour.

The way to improve, as far as I'm concerned, is to get one thing out of each game you lose. So I offer this, rather than detailed commentary.

Hi there I just wanted to register so I could confess that Go is hard too hard for me. I've destroyed a laptop and a tablet in fits of pique after losing groups or games. I don't think I have the right temperament for this game. I'm angry and sad and I think I will just stop playing. >_<

ihatego wrote:Hi there I just wanted to register so I could confess that Go is hard too hard for me. I've destroyed a laptop and a tablet in fits of pique after losing groups or games. I don't think I have the right temperament for this game. I'm angry and sad and I think I will just stop playing. >_<

Certainly understandable. I think we've all been there. Life is short, so if it's not for you, then you should quit.

But before you go, remember that things that bring extreme frustration can often bring extreme satisfaction once you've broken through.

Good luck!

ihatego wrote:Hi there I just wanted to register so I could confess that Go is hard too hard for me.

Nonsense I've been playing for only a bit over a year now, maybe 1.5 years. Don't know exactly. I started out with playing against GNU Go on my tablet, and got smashed into the ground in the beginning. I switched to the program "Go" from AI Factory, which used the Aya engine. Much weaker than GNU Go, but I still got smashed. So, I started taking a four or five stone handicap (and no komi) against Go/Aya level 1.

From there, I started to work my way up, reducing the handicap, and moving to level 2 when I was able to beat Go/Aya 8 times out of ten when GIVING it 2 stones of handicap.

So I moved through Aya's 10 levels, and then started again on GNU Go level 1, which is stronger than Go/Aya on level 10+2 stones. I did the same there, and I recently made such a big jump in strength that I became strong enough to now regularly beat GNU Go at level 10 in an even game (>= 50% win rate). Sometimes I even get it to resign.

So, now I'm *giving* it one or two stones, and start to play stronger engines, again *taking* a handicap.

Try to find several different engines, so as to avoid to 'abuse' an engine, winning by abusing its weaknesses, rather than by becoming stronger yourself. I you improve one stone against one engine, you should have improved one stone against ALL the engines. So for example, if you play at 3 stones against Aya, and 6 stones against GNU Go, and you improve one stone against Aya so you can now play at 2 stones, you SHOULD be able to play against GNU Go by taking 5 stones. You don't need to use a lot of different programs; you can also register at KGS, where you can start playing engines as low as 20k, taking a handicap if necessary.

I've destroyed a laptop and a tablet in fits of pique after losing groups or games. I don't think I have the right temperament for this game. I'm angry and sad and I think I will just stop playing. >_<

While I never have destroyed hardware, I do know what you mean by the angry and sad thing. I have had good games that I lost by just overlooking an atari on a big group, or by misjudging a sequence and losing a capturing race by one liberty.

That does create the "RAAAAAARGGGGGHH, I'll NEVER PLAY THIS GAME AGAIN!!!!" moments.

Of course, people don't want to lose all the time. Even if you are improving, it can be many weeks or months until you are strong enough to win your first game on even. In the beginning, I refused to take handicap stones. I felt too good for it. But then I realized: if I don't, I can't see my own improvement.

Thus, I found the weakest engine (Go/Aya, at that time, on the tablet), set it to the lowest level, and took 4 or 5 stones handicap.

Suddenly, it was a mere days before I won my first game by 1.5 points or so. And then by 6.5 points. And then 10.5. Obviously I also lost some. And so on and on, until I started winning games one after another by 20+ points. Thus, I reduced the handicap by one stone. Thus, I started losing more, and winning with less margin again, but I could SEE a one stone improvement.

===

Note: my version of Go/Aya on Android has recently been upgraded and it's now called Go+. It now contains a MUCH stronger, multithreaded engine. I haven't played a full game yet, as it takes too long to move on my old tablet, but I wouldn't be surprised if it's now stronger than GNU Go on the same tablet.

The description says this:

This new version has been 3 years in preparation and improves the top play strength by 10 grades from 8 kyu to 3 dan. This is based on the new Aya program, which was the winner of the KGS World Computer Go Championship November 2014 and EGC Computer Go Tournament 2015.

8 kyu on level 10 for the old Aya is a bit optimistic. As GoDroid (GNU Go) plays between 5-8 kyu, and is measurably stronger at level 1 than Aya at level 10+2 stones, I would put the old Aya at level 10 at 12 kyu or so. However, it does seem that AI Factory has switched over to the new Monte Carlo version of the Aya engine, which brings it more in line with something like Pachi or Fuego. This would make a VERY strong program, even on a tablet, and it wouldn't be advised to start out with this anymore.

Hello, I would recommend you start your workout with a simple software as Igowin (9x9), this will get stronger as you also do, and you could be watching your progress easily, something like 10 games every day

I became frustrated at always losing since 16k's always paired with me in OGS. Recently, I've been titling my game offers "19k or above please" so I'm paired with people around my rank. To me, it's much more fun to play with folk around your rank. Whether this decreases or increases my rate of bettering my Go skill, I do not care. I'm all about fun.

pocketmad

OGS, by default, doesn't use handicap. If you don't already, I recommend when creating a game to include handicap stones, so that the games are even.

(I'm confused why this still isn't turned on by default...)

sparky314 wrote:pocketmad

OGS, by default, doesn't use handicap. If you don't already, I recommend when creating a game to include handicap stones, so that the games are even.

(I'm confused why this still isn't turned on by default...)

I've had some cases where my opponent was angered at how I already had 4 stones on the board and pulling a rage quit. This led me to titling my games "handicaps enabled," and that led to it taking awhile for someone to join. But maybe it's worth the wait

I'd certainly recommend handicap stones. They make the game interesting for both players, and teaches both new things.

If you're having issues finding games on OGS, maybe another server? OGS is certainly a good server for newer players. If only they turned on the handicap...

On IGS (Pandanet), you should always be able to get a game, though their 17k/BC rank is pretty wide. you'll find everyone from 15k-25k there.

KGS is a bit rough to find games at the lower DDK (read: 15-25 kyu) players, but they have a strong community who are generally willing to play teaching games, if you can't find a game.

sparky314 wrote:I'd certainly recommend handicap stones. They make the game interesting for both players, and teaches both new things.

If you're having issues finding games on OGS, maybe another server? OGS is certainly a good server for newer players. If only they turned on the handicap...

On IGS (Pandanet), you should always be able to get a game, though their 17k/BC rank is pretty wide. you'll find everyone from 15k-25k there.

KGS is a bit rough to find games at the lower DDK (read: 15-25 kyu) players, but they have a strong community who are generally willing to play teaching games, if you can't find a game.

Thanks for the information. I'll check them out.

sparky314 wrote:I'd certainly recommend handicap stones. They make the game interesting for both players, and teaches both new things.

If you're having issues finding games on OGS, maybe another server? OGS is certainly a good server for newer players. If only they turned on the handicap...

I don't think a 15k OGS is really 4 stones stronger than a 19k OGS. There's no reason that scoring algorithms should necessarily work out that way; at beginner ranks, I think the handicap is too much. If you want to play even games, you can just use the "restrict rank" feature on OGS. But just losing a bunch of games isn't a bad thing; it helps not to focus on whether you're winning or losing when you're just getting the very basics of the game.

denizen wrote:

sparky314 wrote:I'd certainly recommend handicap stones. They make the game interesting for both players, and teaches both new things.

If you're having issues finding games on OGS, maybe another server? OGS is certainly a good server for newer players. If only they turned on the handicap...

I don't think a 15k OGS is really 4 stones stronger than a 19k OGS. There's no reason that scoring algorithms should necessarily work out that way;

Actually, there is a very good reason, and that is that ratings calibrated by handicaps allow two players who do not know each other to set a handicap and have a good game. But online rating systems seem to be based upon the probabilities of winning or losing even games, and you can't necessarily set handicaps by those probabilities.

Bill Spight wrote:

denizen wrote:

sparky314 wrote:I'd certainly recommend handicap stones. They make the game interesting for both players, and teaches both new things.

If you're having issues finding games on OGS, maybe another server? OGS is certainly a good server for newer players. If only they turned on the handicap...

I don't think a 15k OGS is really 4 stones stronger than a 19k OGS. There's no reason that scoring algorithms should necessarily work out that way;

Actually, there is a very good reason, and that is that ratings calibrated by handicaps allow two players who do not know each other to set a handicap and have a good game. But online rating systems seem to be based upon the probabilities of winning or losing even games, and you can't necessarily set handicaps by those probabilities.

okay, okay: "will necessarily work out that way"

I've been playing for over a month now and I have played well over a 100 games, I'm super frustrated that I can't even win a game on a 9x9 playing against people who are "the same level" I play against 25k players and get destroyed. Even thought it says on OGS I'm 23k, I have won 5 out of the last 50 games I have played. I can't even do the most basic Tsumego (on the Tsumego Pro app) without having to brute force it. It feels like someone threw me in the deep end and I can't tread water.

Jeansburger wrote:I've been playing for over a month now and I have played well over a 100 games, I'm super frustrated that I can't even win a game on a 9x9 playing against people who are "the same level" I play against 25k players and get destroyed. Even thought it says on OGS I'm 23k, I have won 5 out of the last 50 games I have played. I can't even do the most basic Tsumego (on the Tsumego Pro app) without having to brute force it. It feels like someone threw me in the deep end and I can't tread water.

This does sound frustrating. I'm sorry your stuck after so much effort.

Would you feel comfortable posting one of your games? Perhaps the one that you feel you played best. That would give some of us a clearer idea of what's going on so that we can make suggestions.