Page 6 of 10
Posted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 1:50 am
by EdLee
@ Jika:
Someone wrote (Ed?) that connecting one's stones is aim number one, while trying to disconnect the opponents is number two.
Not me.
Some people say that. But they don't give the caveats:
Connect and cut are only options ;
Those are merely exercises ! -- because beginners need experience ( like falling off a bike! ) ;
Don't make a bad connect ! A connect can be good/OK/bad !
Don't make a bad cut ! A cut can be good/OK/bad ! So, basically, was there any need to play a "connecting" move between my two?
You mention "connecting your stones on top", but how, exactly ?
$$W
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$W
Re: Jika vs Kirby
Posted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 3:46 am
by jlt
Re: Jika vs Kirby
Posted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 4:06 am
by Kirby
$$Wcm11
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm11
There is some argument to be made that the ponnuki I have is strong, and I don't *need* a response to Jika's move here. From that perspective, I could play elsewhere - approach another corner, or crank up the pressure on the top left.
But thinking only in terms of exchanges, answering Jika seems like a net benefit to me - I get a stronger group, keep black separated, and have options to invade reduce points in the top right corner later.
Black's move doesn't totally protect the group on top, either, because there are still points to aim for as white:
$$Wcm11
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm11
So I think just keeping it simple, and answering is fine... I do have a 9-stone handicap deficit to make up, but it's still early in the game.
Posted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 5:03 am
by EdLee
@ jlt & Jika:
From my experience with Go beginners, it matters
very little what you tell them: whether good, OK, or even bad advice; hell, even pros had been teaching "wrong" things, even adamantly, for hundreds of years before AlphaGo showed them what's what's ( e.g. early 3-3 jump-in; 5th line shoulder hit, etc. ).
What Go beginners need is fighting skills. That's it, basically.
How ? From experience ( first 100, 200, ... games, etc. ) ; some stress Go problems, OK ; finding a good teacher is like the lottery.
IMO, most of this kibitz is
social ; actual benefit to Jika's Go career ? Debatable.
Thus, we're back to: Jika, just enjoy and play.
Kirby wrote: There is some argument to be made that the ponnuki I have is strong
A pro might evaluate
's ponnuki at
as "dead".
( Impossible for Jika to evaluate either assessment. )
Re: Jika vs Kirby
Posted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 7:18 am
by jlt
@Ed, Jika:
I agree that beginners shouldn't be overloaded with advice, that's why I am mostly chatting on this thread and giving almost no advice. However, when I was 17k, a stronger player told me that when playing with handicap, I should attack, which meant if possible:
don't allow my opponent to make a base
separate my opponent's groups
keep my stones connected.
Like with every proverb, these guidelines have many exceptions, and the conditions under which they should be applied may be misunderstood by beginners, but at least they give an immediate answer to the question that many beginners ask: "Where should I play? The board is so large, I am lost."
Of course there are other possible moves, like taking a big point, closing a territory, etc. but these kinds of moves are generally clear for beginners. On the other hand, the concept of attacking is much less obvious.
Since I found these guidelines useful when I was 17k, I thought I would reproduce them here, at the risk of being misunderstood.
Re: Jika vs Kirby
Posted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 8:26 am
by Jika
Well, since O17 has been in my considerations since at least 2 moves ago, it does not come unexpected that Kirby plays there.
Re: Jika vs Kirby
Posted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 8:41 am
by Jika
$$Wcm11
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm11
I considered
$$Wcm11
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm11
but that would be mirroring J17.
Re: Jika vs Kirby
Posted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 9:07 am
by Bill Spight
@Jika
$$Wc Inefficient
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wc Inefficient
Yes, in this position the two
-
exchanges would be questionable for Black. White has been strengthened in exchange for very little profit for Black.
Re: Jika vs Kirby
Posted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 11:26 am
by Kirby
$$Wcm11
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm11
I'm not sure if this is the most severe move, but I'm trying to be patient here (this is unlike me - I'm typically impatient).
My idea is simple - keep my groups somewhat connected (they can be cut, but they get stronger if black tries to cut now). Surrounding the outside like this has the additional benefit of threatening the corner - black's lone 4-4 stone in the top left looks lonely, and could be in danger of living. If white captures the entire top left, that's a good chunk of points this early in a 9-stone game.
Another thought that one might consider after a double approach would be to invade to get the points:
$$Wcm11
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm11
It's actually not that bad, and could be better than what I played in the game - I had a hard time deciding which one to play, but decided on the influence in the end.
Here's one possible 3-3 variation:
$$Wcm1
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm1
It could also go like this:
$$Wcm1
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm1
And so on - there's still aji to play around 'a' to help the white stones... So I don't think the 3-3 is necessarily a bad option.
But I still like influence in a handicap game like this, so in the end, I prefer the move I played in the game.
It's a tough choice, though. The 3-3 is very tempting.
Re: Jika vs Kirby
Posted: Thu Sep 12, 2019 6:26 am
by Uberdude
@all
I think it's instructive to look at this position topologically, that is in terms of large scale connection and separation of stones/groups. Jika now has 3 topological blobs, whilst Kirby has 2.
Screenshot_20190912_135649.jpg (226.23 KiB) Viewed 25225 times
Connecting your stones into fewer blobs is better. Compare with one of Bill's suggestions for a classic calm response. 2 for black, 2 for White.
Screenshot_20190912_141109.jpg (225.64 KiB) Viewed 25225 times
And if Jika played one of her ideas to answer the double approach. 2 and a bit for black (as top left isn't strongly connected to the rest). 3 for White.
Screenshot_20190912_143214.jpg (255.66 KiB) Viewed 25225 times
Re: Jika vs Kirby
Posted: Thu Sep 12, 2019 11:11 am
by Ferran
Jika wrote: I've heard there are non-posting kibitzers out there (yes, Ferran, you!) who enjoy following your advice.
Moi? I'd never! You slander me, sir!
Nah, it's just that I don't think I can give anything but questions that might derail the focus from the game.
Take care.
Re: Jika vs Kirby
Posted: Thu Sep 12, 2019 11:25 am
by Bill Spight
Ferran wrote: Jika wrote: I've heard there are non-posting kibitzers out there (yes, Ferran, you!) who enjoy following your advice.
Moi? I'd never! You slander me, sir!
Nah, it's just that I don't think I can give anything but questions that might derail the focus from the game.
Take care.
Go ahead and ask.
Make them hidden and you won't derail anything.
Posted: Fri Sep 13, 2019 3:56 am
by EdLee
Test renderings of post 85 boards:
$$ 3 :black: blobs ; 2 :white: blobs
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$ 3 :black: blobs ; 2 :white: blobs$$ 2 :black: blobs ; 2 :white: blobs
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$ 2 :black: blobs ; 2 :white: blobs$$ 2+ :black: blobs ; 3 :white: blobs
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$ 2+ :black: blobs ; 3 :white: blobs
Re: Jika vs Kirby
Posted: Fri Sep 13, 2019 11:20 am
by Jika
$$Wcm11
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm11
At least one benefit is that I am learning the diagram code a bit...
I would have preferred to find a move how I can change the separation of my groups (right being cut off). I might try a move to try to get the upper right corner, but that is close combat...
So, now I'm testing Kirby's nice territory a bit. A toe in the water ("Jaws"...).
Re: Jika vs Kirby
Posted: Fri Sep 13, 2019 7:18 pm
by Kirby
$$Wcm21
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm21
My natural inclination while playing go is to resist my opponent's plan. My opponent wants me to play 'A' so that he can play 'B'? Well, then I'll play 'C'! That'll show 'em! Maybe this could be categorized as fighting spirit, but it doesn't mean that it's always the best strategy. When my neighbor stops by my house and offers me a cake to eat, I'll take the cake - maybe it's a bad example with all of those calories.
Anyway, black's move is endgame-ish. It only has meaning if black continues:
$$Wcm1
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm1
But in that case, it's just endgame. At that point, I can play a hanging connection to really eliminate aji in the corner - that's a good chunk of points for 6 stones:
$$Wcm11
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm11
However, if it goes like this, I might decide on a tenuki, and play elsewhere:
$$Wcm1 white tenuki and play somewhere else
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm1 white tenuki and play somewhere else
Anyway, long story short: Black's hane strengthens black's group, but it's already strong. So effectively, it's an endgame move. And I think it's too early to play endgame moves right now.
I could consider ignoring, but there's value in playing a separating move, at least initially here.
's ponnuki at 
as "dead". 
- 
exchanges would be questionable for Black. White has been strengthened in exchange for very little profit for Black.