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Moonlight life and go rules

https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?t=18269

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Re: Moonlight life and go rules

Posted: Thu Jul 22, 2021 3:02 pm
by Gérard TAILLE
Bill Spight wrote:
Gérard TAILLE wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:What's the problem?
in the link https://senseis.xmp.net/?SpightJapaneseStyleRules it exist for example the following article:
That's the wrong link, as I just told you. :shock:
Yes Bill I know

Another example of very common seki:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W 0 point in japonese rule and 1 point in Spight rule
$$ --------------------
$$ | O . O . X O . . . .
$$ | X O O . X O . . . .
$$ | X X X X X O . . . .
$$ | O O O O O O . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$[/go]
As you mentionned it very clearly yourself, Spight rule is not japonese rule. My view is that the difference concerns essentially sekis with one point difference in some very common cases.
OC it is not a problem Bill just a comparaison for a better understanding. :)

Re: Moonlight life and go rules

Posted: Thu Jul 22, 2021 3:27 pm
by Bill Spight
Bill Spight wrote:
Gérard TAILLE wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:What's the problem?
in the link https://senseis.xmp.net/?SpightJapaneseStyleRules it exist for example the following article:
That's the wrong link, as I just told you. :shock:
Gérard TAILLE wrote:Yes Bill I know

Another example of very common seki:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W 0 point in japonese rule and 1 point in Spight rule
$$ --------------------
$$ | O . O . X O . . . .
$$ | X O O . X O . . . .
$$ | X X X X X O . . . .
$$ | O O O O O O . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$[/go]
As you mentionned it very clearly yourself, Spight rule is not japonese rule. My view is that the difference concerns essentially sekis with one point difference in some very common cases.
OC it is not a problem Bill just a comparaison for a better understanding. :)
Basically, Spight rules with territory scoring implement Berlekamp's No Pass Go with Prisoner Return, with a superko rule. Except for the superko rule, it is consistent with the oldest extant game records for which the scores are known, which are territory scores with a group tax. The main difference with modern Japanese scoring is the group tax. Modern Japanese scoring of sekis is also quirky. The SpightJapaneseStyle rules are irrelevant. Why do you keep referring to them?

How do you see the shown mannenko position remaining on the board, so that White gets 1 net point in the encore?

Re: Moonlight life and go rules

Posted: Fri Jul 23, 2021 2:48 am
by Gérard TAILLE
Bill Spight wrote:
Gérard TAILLE wrote: Another example of very common seki:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W 0 point in japonese rule and 1 point in Spight rule
$$ --------------------
$$ | O . O . X O . . . .
$$ | X O O . X O . . . .
$$ | X X X X X O . . . .
$$ | O O O O O O . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$[/go]
As you mentionned it very clearly yourself, Spight rule is not japonese rule. My view is that the difference concerns essentially sekis with one point difference in some very common cases.
OC it is not a problem Bill just a comparaison for a better understanding. :)
Basically, Spight rules with territory scoring implement Berlekamp's No Pass Go with Prisoner Return, with a superko rule. Except for the superko rule, it is consistent with the oldest extant game records for which the scores are known, which are territory scores with a group tax. The main difference with modern Japanese scoring is the group tax. Modern Japanese scoring of sekis is also quirky. The SpightJapaneseStyle rules are irrelevant. Why do you keep referring to them?
Yes Bill, I my last post I mentionned only "Spight rule" and not "japonese Spight rule" but may be I was not clear enough.
Bill Spight wrote: How do you see the shown mannenko position remaining on the board, so that White gets 1 net point in the encore?
Because connecting the ko is a one-sided dame and with encore, any one-sided dame allows to gain one point. Am I wrong?

If it is true (?) then
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Japonese rule 0, Spight rule +2
$$ ----------------
$$ | . O O X . . .
$$ | X . O X . . .
$$ | X X O X . . .
$$ | . . O X . . .
$$ | O O O X . . .
$$ | X X X X . . .
$$ | . . . . . . .
$$ -------------[/go]
and similarly, assuming no ko fight (I mean no ko threat):
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Japonese rule +1, Spight rule +3
$$ ----------------
$$ | . O X . O X . .
$$ | O X X . O X . .
$$ | O O O O O X . .
$$ | X X X X X X . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ -------------[/go]
2 points difference looks significant and I guess strategy may change if these kind of seki occur.

Re: Moonlight life and go rules

Posted: Fri Jul 23, 2021 8:02 am
by Shaddy
This is a tangent from the main discussion, but I saw this diagram and couldn't resist.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -------------------------------
$$ | X X X X X X X X X X X O . . .
$$ | X X X X X X X X X X X O . . .
$$ | X X X X X X X X X X X O . . .
$$ | X X X X X X X X X X X O . . .
$$ | X X X X X X X X X X X O . . .
$$ | X X X X X X X X X X X O . . .
$$ | X X X X X X X X X X X O . . .
$$ | X X X X X X X X X X X O . . .
$$ | X X X X X X X X X X X O . . .
$$ | X X X X X X X X X X X O O . .
$$ | X X X X X X X X X X X . O . .
$$ | O O O O O O O O O O O O O . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$[/go]
If White captured the block, Black could actually live inside. Do our rulesets account for this at all?

Re: Moonlight life and go rules

Posted: Fri Jul 23, 2021 8:23 am
by Gérard TAILLE
Shaddy wrote:This is a tangent from the main discussion, but I saw this diagram and couldn't resist.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -------------------------------
$$ | X X X X X X X X X X X O . . .
$$ | X X X X X X X X X X X O . . .
$$ | X X X X X X X X X X X O . . .
$$ | X X X X X X X X X X X O . . .
$$ | X X X X X X X X X X X O . . .
$$ | X X X X X X X X X X X O . . .
$$ | X X X X X X X X X X X O . . .
$$ | X X X X X X X X X X X O . . .
$$ | X X X X X X X X X X X O . . .
$$ | X X X X X X X X X X X O O . .
$$ | X X X X X X X X X X X . O . .
$$ | O O O O O O O O O O O O O . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$[/go]
If White captured the block, Black could actually live inside. Do our rulesets account for this at all?
Yes Shaddy, your comment is exactly the issue handled by the subject "No result game without loop (in japonese rule)" beginning by the post viewtopic.php?p=265939#p265939

For the specific position above I think we are all agreeing black can live inside the corner. Under japonese rules that means that if the game ends without white making the capture then black stones and white stones are considered in seki. Because such result could not be acceptable for white, she has no choice but to take the black stones during normal play, and continue the game.
In the link I mentionned above you will find more difficult positions for which the japonese rule fails to give a clear result.

Re: Moonlight life and go rules

Posted: Fri Jul 23, 2021 9:56 am
by Bill Spight
Gérard TAILLE wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:
Gérard TAILLE wrote: Another example of very common seki:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W 0 point in japonese rule and 1 point in Spight rule
$$ --------------------
$$ | O . O . X O . . . .
$$ | X O O . X O . . . .
$$ | X X X X X O . . . .
$$ | O O O O O O . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$[/go]
As you mentionned it very clearly yourself, Spight rule is not japonese rule. My view is that the difference concerns essentially sekis with one point difference in some very common cases.
OC it is not a problem Bill just a comparaison for a better understanding. :)
Basically, Spight rules with territory scoring implement Berlekamp's No Pass Go with Prisoner Return, with a superko rule. Except for the superko rule, it is consistent with the oldest extant game records for which the scores are known, which are territory scores with a group tax. The main difference with modern Japanese scoring is the group tax. Modern Japanese scoring of sekis is also quirky. The SpightJapaneseStyle rules are irrelevant. Why do you keep referring to them?
Yes Bill, I my last post I mentionned only "Spight rule" and not "japonese Spight rule" but may be I was not clear enough.
Because you did not correct the link to the Spight Japanese Style rules, which rules you commented on earlier. That's not simply not being clear.
Bill Spight wrote: How do you see the shown mannenko position remaining on the board, so that White gets 1 net point in the encore?
Because connecting the ko is a one-sided dame and with encore, any one-sided dame allows to gain one point. Am I wrong?[/quote]

You are the only person I know of who calls that point a one-sided dame. ;)

Under Spight territory rules it is possible to show whether White can claim 1 point in the encore. You are welcome to prove your claim. :)
Gérard TAILLE wrote:If it is true (?) then
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Japonese rule 0, Spight rule +2
$$ ----------------
$$ | . O O X . . .
$$ | X . O X . . .
$$ | X X O X . . .
$$ | . . O X . . .
$$ | O O O X . . .
$$ | X X X X . . .
$$ | . . . . . . .
$$ -------------[/go]
and similarly, assuming no ko fight (I mean no ko threat):
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Japonese rule +1, Spight rule +3
$$ ----------------
$$ | . O X . O X . .
$$ | O X X . O X . .
$$ | O O O O O X . .
$$ | X X X X X X . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ -------------[/go]
2 points difference looks significant and I guess strategy may change if these kind of seki occur.
The latter is 0 by the 1989 Japanese rules, and is the kind of mannenko position that produced the controversial ruling that eventually led to the 1949 Japanese rules.

Re: Moonlight life and go rules

Posted: Fri Jul 23, 2021 10:02 am
by Gérard TAILLE
Bill Spight wrote:
Gérard TAILLE wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Japonese rule +1, Spight rule +3
$$ ----------------
$$ | . W X . O X . .
$$ | O X X . O X . .
$$ | O O O O O X . .
$$ | X X X X X X . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ -------------[/go]
The latter is 0 by the 1989 Japanese rules, and is the kind of mannenko position that produced the controversial ruling that eventually led to the 1949 Japanese rules.
In 1989 japonese rule the marked white stone is not dead?

Re: Moonlight life and go rules

Posted: Fri Jul 23, 2021 10:16 am
by Bill Spight
Gérard TAILLE wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:
Gérard TAILLE wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Japonese rule +1, Spight rule +3
$$ ----------------
$$ | . W X . O X . .
$$ | O X X . O X . .
$$ | O O O O O X . .
$$ | X X X X X X . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ -------------[/go]
The latter is 0 by the 1989 Japanese rules, and is the kind of mannenko position that produced the controversial ruling that eventually led to the 1949 Japanese rules.
In 1989 japonese rule the marked white stone is not dead?
It is dead, but the stones are in seki, so it is not removable.

Re: Moonlight life and go rules

Posted: Fri Jul 23, 2021 10:31 am
by Gérard TAILLE
Bill Spight wrote:
Gérard TAILLE wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W 0 point in japonese rule and 1 point in Spight rule
$$ --------------------
$$ | O . O . X O . . . .
$$ | X O O . X O . . . .
$$ | X X X X X O . . . .
$$ | O O O O O O . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$[/go]
You are the only person I know of who calls that point a one-sided dame. ;)

Under Spight territory rules it is possible to show whether White can claim 1 point in the encore. You have not done so.
Let's take Spight rule:
Play stops when the same player passes a second time in the same board position.
With territory scoring play stops twice. After the first stop there is an encore in which a pass costs one point and each player makes the same number of plays (considering a pass a play)

In the position above black cannot avoid :w1: pass :b2: pass :w3: pass
According to Spight rule the play stops (white has passed a second time in the same position)
Now, after this first stop Spight rule (with territory scoring) says an encore begins then it follows:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ --------------------
$$ | O 6 O . X O . . . .
$$ | X O O . X O . . . .
$$ | X X X X X O . . . .
$$ | O O O O O O . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$[/go]
:b5: pass
:b7: pass
:w8: pass
:b9: pass (now black has passed a second time in the same position
:w10: pass (one more pass because black began the encore)
and white gains one point because black passed three times and white only two times.

Re: Moonlight life and go rules

Posted: Fri Jul 23, 2021 10:40 am
by Gérard TAILLE
Bill Spight wrote:
Gérard TAILLE wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Japonese rule +1, Spight rule +3
$$ ----------------
$$ | . W X . O X . .
$$ | O X X . O X . .
$$ | O O O O O X . .
$$ | X X X X X X . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ -------------[/go]
It is dead, but the stones are in seki, so it is not removable.
OK Bill but black has simply to take the ko before the end of the game. That way black marks one point doesn't it?
On the contrary, with Spight rule, black will wait till the encore before taking the ko and connect. That is the point.

Re: Moonlight life and go rules

Posted: Fri Jul 23, 2021 10:41 am
by Bill Spight
Gérard TAILLE wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:
Gérard TAILLE wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W 0 point in japonese rule and 1 point in Spight rule
$$ --------------------
$$ | O . O . X O . . . .
$$ | X O O . X O . . . .
$$ | X X X X X O . . . .
$$ | O O O O O O . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$[/go]
You are the only person I know of who calls that point a one-sided dame. ;)

Under Spight territory rules it is possible to show whether White can claim 1 point in the encore. You have not done so.
Let's take Spight rule:
Play stops when the same player passes a second time in the same board position.
With territory scoring play stops twice. After the first stop there is an encore in which a pass costs one point and each player makes the same number of plays (considering a pass a play)

In the position above black cannot avoid :w1: pass :b2: pass :w3: pass
According to Spight rule the play stops (white has passed a second time in the same position)
Now, after this first stop Spight rule (with territory scoring) says an encore begins then it follows:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ --------------------
$$ | O 6 O . X O . . . .
$$ | X O O . X O . . . .
$$ | X X X X X O . . . .
$$ | O O O O O O . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$[/go]
:b5: pass
:b7: pass
:w8: pass
:b9: pass (now black has passed a second time in the same position
:w10: pass (one more pass because black began the encore)
and white gains one point because black passed three times and white only two times.
Very good. :)

The following is also possible.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W White to play passes
$$ --------------------
$$ | O 2 O . X O . . . .
$$ | X O O . X O . . . .
$$ | X X X X X O . . . .
$$ | O O O O O O . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$[/go]
:w1:, :w3:, :b4: = pass
Either :w3: or :b4: could stop play. :)

Re: Moonlight life and go rules

Posted: Fri Jul 23, 2021 10:57 am
by Bill Spight
Gérard TAILLE wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:
Gérard TAILLE wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Japonese rule +1, Spight rule +3
$$ ----------------
$$ | . W X . O X . .
$$ | O X X . O X . .
$$ | O O O O O X . .
$$ | X X X X X X . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ -------------[/go]
It is dead, but the stones are in seki, so it is not removable.
OK Bill but black has simply to take the ko before the end of the game. That way black marks one point doesn't it?
Yes, or reopen the play and take the :wc: stone after White passes. :)
Gérard TAILLE wrote:On the contrary, with Spight rule, black will wait till the encore before taking the ko and connect. That is the point.
If White has nothing better than to pass after Black takes the ko. :)

Re: Moonlight life and go rules

Posted: Fri Jul 23, 2021 11:10 am
by Gérard TAILLE
Bill Spight wrote: If White has nothing better than to pass after Black takes the ko. :)
What do you mean Bill?
In any case, in the encore phase, each side takes all dead stones and each side plays her one-sided dame; finally, taking the dead stones costs nothing while taking a one-sided dame gains one point. The order for making all these moves is generally not significant.

Re: Moonlight life and go rules

Posted: Fri Jul 23, 2021 11:39 am
by Bill Spight
Gérard TAILLE wrote:
Bill Spight wrote: If White has nothing better than to pass after Black takes the ko. :)
What do you mean Bill?
In any case, in the encore phase, each side takes all dead stones and each side plays her one-sided dame; finally, taking the dead stones costs nothing while taking a one-sided dame gains one point. The order for making all these moves is generally not significant.
Under Spight rules with territory scoring, one sided dame are territory. In the encore playing a one sided dame gains nothing, while passing loses one point.

For example, if this is the encore:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W White to play
$$ ----------------
$$ | 6 O O X O O 3 |
$$ | X 4 O X O O B |
$$ | X X O X O O 5 |
$$ | . . O X O O O |
$$ | O O O X O O O |
$$ | X X X X X O O |
$$ | . 2 1 8 X O . |
$$ -------------[/go]
:w7:, :w9: - :b12: = pass

None of the board plays gains anything. The five passes each lose one point. Net result: Black 4 - White 3 = +1 for Black. (The group tax applies. :))

As for the order of play being significant, neither side should fill a point of territory before the encore. :)

Re: Moonlight life and go rules

Posted: Fri Jul 23, 2021 2:07 pm
by Gérard TAILLE
Bill Spight wrote: Under Spight rules with territory scoring, one sided dame are territory.
That is exactly what I meant.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ----------------
$$ | . O O X O O . |
$$ | X . O X O O X |
$$ | X X O X O O . |
$$ | . . O X O O O |
$$ | O O O X O O O |
$$ | X X X X X O O |
$$ | . . . . X O . |
$$ -------------[/go]
In this example you can see 4 points for black (4 points of territory) against 5 points for white (4 points of territory + 1 prisonner). Black has 2 one-sided dames => the result of the encore will be a black win by 1 point.

As far as I am concerned I like Spight rules for its simplicity. It is really a great advantage comparing to the complex japonese rule. Now for a player wanted to play in a pure territory context I imagine she will not like to take into account one-sided dames which looks really an area approach. That's life ;-)
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