Life In 19x19

Posted: **Mon Apr 15, 2024 1:22 pm**

RobertJasiek wrote: My definition, e.g., in [22] is:

"M_GOTE > M_B,SENTE, M_W,SENTE"

Oops, if "M_GOTE > M_B,SENTE, M_W,SENTE" then, providing no other options exist, the position looks like a seki.
Do you know a position which is not a seki and for which we have "M_GOTE > M_B,SENTE, M_W,SENTE"?

Posted: **Mon Apr 15, 2024 1:27 pm**

Gérard TAILLE wrote:you disagree but you do not want to explain why you disagree! Why do you take such negative attitude?

Because I have already explained...

Posted: **Mon Apr 15, 2024 1:50 pm**

Gérard TAILLE wrote:Do you know a position which is not a seki and for which we have "M_GOTE > M_B,SENTE, M_W,SENTE"?

For the simplest tree case, there is our (Francisco Criado, I, Bill Spight) theorem in [22] of non-existence of local double sente! So the only question is if something more complicated exists, possibly involving ko. However, the history of go and the history of go research have not produced any promising shape or CGT tree candidate yet. The closest attempts are (my) doubly ambiguous shapes with equalities in the value comparisons or my gote that every traditionalist would have perceived as double sente but whose values are just borderline attempts. If you disregard the web archives and literature, reinvent them (easy enough and a good exercise to eventually find your dream "counter"-example, if any exists)!

Posted: **Mon Apr 15, 2024 1:56 pm**

RobertJasiek wrote:
Gérard TAILLE wrote:you disagree but you do not want to explain why you disagree! Why do you take such negative attitude?
Because I have already explained...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ ---------------------------- $$ . . . . . . . 6 2 5 . . . | $$ . . . . . . . 4 3 1 O d . | $$ . . . . . . . X O c X O . | $$ . . X , . X . X X X . O . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ . . . , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

You only said "You overlook tenuki!" which is not quite clear for me.
Does that means that it is better for white to replace

or

by a tenuki?
Remember that it does not matter for me if black does not play the best moves because my question concerns only white moves.

Posted: **Mon Apr 15, 2024 2:01 pm**

No, the white moves depend on the black moves!

Posted: **Mon Apr 15, 2024 2:20 pm**

RobertJasiek wrote:No, the white moves depend on the black moves!

OC but assume I impose these specific black moves (even if they are not the best one). My question concerns ONLY white moves : are these white moves the best one?

Posted: **Mon Apr 15, 2024 4:07 pm**

1 and 5 not necessarily. If there is an important ko, 1 or 5 at d might better as negative threat. 3 at 4 I have not checked carefully.

(I assume you assume that White cannot invade the black territory.)

Posted: **Tue Apr 16, 2024 9:42 am**

RobertJasiek wrote:For the simplest tree case, there is our (Francisco Criado, I, Bill Spight) theorem in [22] of non-existence of local double sente! So the only question is if something more complicated exists, possibly involving ko. However, the history of go and the history of go research have not produced any promising shape or CGT tree candidate yet. The closest attempts are (my) doubly ambiguous shapes with equalities in the value comparisons or my gote that every traditionalist would have perceived as double sente but whose values are just borderline attempts. If you disregard the web archives and literature, reinvent them (easy enough and a good exercise to eventually find your dream "counter"-example, if any exists)!

What is this position (Francisco Criado, I, Bill Spight)?
If it is the following one I do not see both a black sente option and a white sente option.
[img]

: sente vs yose.jpg (40.01 KiB) Viewed 8957 times

[/img]

Posted: **Tue Apr 16, 2024 10:16 am**

Gérard TAILLE wrote:What is this position

The (initial position of the) general ordinary game tree of depth 2.

sente%20vs%20yose.jpg

In your image, you write three names but we are not the authors of its tree! You are so write your name instead!

As to the contents of the tree, I do not solve all your problems. Analyse your own tree, and then we can discuss your analysis.

Posted: **Tue Apr 16, 2024 12:41 pm**

RobertJasiek wrote:In your image, you write three names but we are not the authors of its tree! You are so write your name instead!
As to the contents of the tree, I do not solve all your problems. Analyse your own tree, and then we can discuss your analysis.

According to your post https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?p=277835#p277835 this tree was created by Francisco Criado and I understood you produced great and surely interested work on this specific position, in cooperation with Bill Spight. For that reason I associated your three names to this position. I mentionned this position only because the sente options and gote options are here quite difficult to handle. I am quite surprised you do not remember this interesting position.

Coming back to the tree I showed in my post https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?p=280548#p280548 you answer was that the position is not a double sente. I agree with you but that was not my question. I never suggest this position could be a double sente position.
My question was the following: according to your theory are black b and white d both sente options?

Posted: **Tue Apr 16, 2024 1:15 pm**

RobertJasiek wrote:1 and 5 not necessarily. If there is an important ko, 1 or 5 at d might better as negative threat. 3 at 4 I have not checked carefully.

(I assume you assume that White cannot invade the black territory.)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ ---------------------------- $$ . . . . . . . 6 2 5 . . . | $$ . . . . . . . 4 3 O O d . | $$ . . . . . . . X O c X O . | $$ . . X , . X . X X X . O . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ . . . , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

This time I agree with you.
If now we ignore the value of a ko threat created locally (I do not know if a theory exists on this subject) then that means that the

and

are the best answers to black moves (on contrary these black moves may not be necessarily the best black moves!).

Posted: **Tue Apr 16, 2024 2:23 pm**

Gérard TAILLE wrote:
RobertJasiek wrote:In your image, you write three names but we are not the authors of its tree! You are so write your name instead!
As to the contents of the tree, I do not solve all your problems. Analyse your own tree, and then we can discuss your analysis.
According to your post https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?p=277835#p277835 this tree was created by Francisco Criado and I understood you produced great and surely interested work on this specific position, in cooperation with Bill Spight. For that reason I associated your three names to this position. I mentionned this position only because the sente options and gote options are here quite difficult to handle. I am quite surprised you do not remember this interesting position.

Coming back to the tree I showed in my post https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?p=280548#p280548 you answer was that the position is not a double sente. I agree with you but that was not my question. I never suggest this position could be a double sente position.
My question was the following: according to your theory are black b and white d both sente options?

I see. There has been my misunderstanding of what tree you referred to. I thought you meant the tree of the theorem of non-existence of local double sente. Now I understand you mean Francisco's example related to making a hypothesis. This example was in text annotation instead of graphical tree representation so I have not recognised it. Now I need to check whether indeed it is. Its analysis is quite difficult so I need to reread its study carefully before I can confirm / reject your specific question about it.

Posted: **Tue Apr 16, 2024 4:47 pm**

#63

Robert, how apply your theorems for these positions?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ Black to move. a = -23; b = -22 $$ +---------------------------------+ $$ | O . X X . . b . X . X X X X X X | $$ | O O . O X . O a O X X X . X O . | $$ | . O O O . O O X O X . X , X O X | $$ | . O . O O O . X O X . X X X O O | $$ | . O X X X O X X O X . X X O O O | $$ | . O X X . O O O O X . X X O . O | $$ | O O O O X X X X X X X X X O O . | $$ +---------------------------------+[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ Black to move. a = -23; b = -24 $$ +---------------------------------+ $$ | O . X X . . b . X . X X X X X X | $$ | O O . O X . O a O X X X . X O . | $$ | . O O O . O O X O X . X , X O X | $$ | . O . O O O . X O X . X X X O X | $$ | . O X X X O X X O X . X X O O O | $$ | . O X X . O O O O X . X X O . O | $$ | O O O O X X X X X X X X X O O . | $$ +---------------------------------+[/go]

Code: Select all

C:= {0|-11}; D2:= {0|-2}; T2:= C + D2; D4:= {0|-4}; T4:= C + D4

It's funny that T2 and T4 temperatures are the same, but we get different best moves.

Code: Select all

> T2.Temperature
11/2
> T4.Temperature
11/2

Are T2 and T4 Temperature Regions?

Posted: **Tue Apr 16, 2024 10:25 pm**

dany wrote:Robert, how apply your theorems for these positions?

Please clarify: do you mean a late endgame or early endgame position?

Code: Select all
C:= {0|-11}; D2:= {0|-2}; T2:= C + D2; D4:= {0|-4}; T4:= C + D4
It's funny that T2 and T4 temperatures

While I use temperature for the environment's ambient temperature, I am unsure about your intended meaning of temperature here. Ambient, local or global temperature? Or move value? If you mean the local temperatures of either sum of local endgames, I do not want to apply the definition of "local temperature" with its cooling and infinitesimals.

Code: Select all
> T2.Temperature
11/2
> T4.Temperature
11/2
Are T2 and T4 Temperature Regions?

I have not tried to understand 11/2 yet but as to your question if you mean the ambient temperature T: it is of only the largest region C = {0|-11} and is T = (0 - (-11)) / 2 = 5 1/2 calculated as the gote move value of C.

Either D2 or D4 provides either 1 or 2 as another move value of the environment.

Posted: **Tue Apr 16, 2024 10:54 pm**

Gérard TAILLE wrote:[img]
sente%20vs%20yose.jpg
[/img]

Your attached image in https://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.p ... 71#p280571

has the wrong caption "Francisco Criado, Robert Jasiek, Bill Spight". This example in [22] has been invented by Francisco Criado and analysed by him and me. Bill has nothing to do with it. It is counter-example 1 for making a hypothesis and assumes a rich environment. Citation from [22]:

"At the high ambient temperature T = 4.5, [...] White prefers to move from B to D. At the low temperature T = 1.5 [...] White prefers to move from B to C and Black continues locally [...] For an arbitrary ambient temperature T, we must compare C and D as positions
and must not just compare resulting scores. The choice between C and D cannot be simplified with dominance but depends on the environment."

An analysis of the example requires consideration of the enriched score as in definitions 8 in [22]:

"If Black / White starts, the resulting score of P at temperature T is:
B_T(P) := B(P + Ε_T) - T/2,
W_T(P) := W(P + Ε_T) + T/2."

Here, E_T is a rich environment. See [22] or the CGT literature on details! I do not repeat the entire [22] here.

Life In 19x19

Gote move vs sente move in yose

Re: Gote move vs sente move in yose

Re: Gote move vs sente move in yose

Re: Gote move vs sente move in yose

Re: Gote move vs sente move in yose

Re: Gote move vs sente move in yose

Re: Gote move vs sente move in yose

Re: Gote move vs sente move in yose

Re: Gote move vs sente move in yose

Re: Gote move vs sente move in yose

Re: Gote move vs sente move in yose

Re: Gote move vs sente move in yose

Re: Gote move vs sente move in yose

Re: Gote move vs sente move in yose

Re: Gote move vs sente move in yose

Re: Gote move vs sente move in yose