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Re: 24. Tabemasu (7d) vs. Araban (5d)
Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 8:13 am
by Jonas
@tabemasu
Hey Gus
If got a few questions, hope you've time o answer some of them ^_^.
In my own games I often have trouble to find the right time to play an important move. If I remember the joseki going on right now correct, you are going to end with sente. Afterwards what is more important, continuing to build a moyo on the left side or to split Black with a move like 'a' ? Where would be the best points to continue building (around'b'?) ? My feeling tells me, that white somehow ends up to concentrated on one side if white plays a move like 'b', therefore I think I'd play 'a'. On the other hand this enables black to build a nice box if he exchanges black 'c' for white 'd' ... so maybe some exotic move like 'e' is the correct choice?
Additionally can you explain a little bit about the aji which remains at the lone stone at the upperside?
$$c Move 26
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$c Move 26
Re: 24. Tabemasu (7d) vs. Araban (5d)
Posted: Thu Jun 10, 2010 6:30 pm
by Solomon
Hey Gus sorry for the hold-up, I should have mentioned earlier but this week was finals week in my university and I just got done today with my last exam.
$$c Move 27
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$c Move 27
Type: Text
is obvious, I want to ensure that I'm connected to the outside. While playing 'a' may give me a bigger corner, it would nonetheless end up sealed and this is not satisfactory. I should have thrown this move in to the trigger as well...though maybe that would not have mattered since it seems Gus isn't up for triggers :/. I expect White to play 'b' either immediately or later, it's a big move but not urgent.
So far I'm satisfied with the situation. The aji at the top is a bit odd,
but if I can keep it under control without giving White too much then everything is dandy because H13 is a thorn that pierces the potential for White to build a large framework on the left. Territorially I would say I'm slightly ahead, although at this stage in the game that isn't saying very much. Furthermore, it's hard to assign a point value to the top because, as I've mentioned, the aji there is worrying. The ideal situation is for me to get sente so I could invest one more move there, but the timing will be difficult because if I play it too soon, I may end up falling behind.
Go is such a difficult game
.
Re: 24. Tabemasu (7d) vs. Araban (5d)
Posted: Sun Jun 13, 2010 2:27 am
by Tabemasu
$$c Move 28
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$c Move 28
I really thought he would play at 'a' instead, it might have been a little better, but it's hard to say.
I am expecting this next, then he may tenuki to play on the left or settle his group on the bottom. If he plays on the bottom I might play at 'c', it seems like he will have to invade and it will be interesting
$$ ---------------------------------------
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$ ---------------------------------------As for your questions Jonas, you are right in feeling that 'a' feels a little over concentrated, which is why I will try and be a little more greedy like above. Really the right side isn't a big deal, it's more about how to handle the top. I think maybe I will play at 'b' if I get the chance later. The aji of my stone on top isn't anything specific right now, it's just that I have many options on how I can use it, such as 'c', 'd', or 'e'. That is also part of the reason why I will play 'b' on top, to try and make use of the aji.
$$c
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$cAnyway, I hope he lives on the bottom so I can play a 6th line move, I think the game will be very fun after that!
Re: 24. Tabemasu (7d) vs. Araban (5d)
Posted: Mon Jun 14, 2010 10:09 pm
by Solomon
$$c Move 29
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$c Move 29
This move is incredibly important to stick my head out as much as possible. If White plays elsewhere:
$$c
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$c We can see that this is clearly unsatisfactory for White because the framework on the left is soured by
. So
is obviously sente. If White tries to block directly:
$$c
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$cWhite has to worry about the cuts at 'a' and 'b'. If
is at F6, then Black responds with H4. But if White plays something else to try and seal Black in as much as possible at the bottom:
$$c
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$c Then the
-
exchange can be considered helpful for Black since Black gets some air into the center (note the bad connection relationship between F6 and J4, which will help me to break out in the event that White tries to strike at 'a') and of course still maintains sente. Another move will not be necessary after
and so I may consider going deep with an invasion like 'b' to break up his framework.
Re: 24. Tabemasu (7d) vs. Araban (5d)
Posted: Mon Jun 14, 2010 10:57 pm
by Joaz Banbeck
@Araban:
How would you handle something like this, in which white sacrifices the peeping stone?
$$Wc
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wc( if 2 at 'a' then 3 at 'b' and 5 at 3 etc )
Re: 24. Tabemasu (7d) vs. Araban (5d)
Posted: Mon Jun 14, 2010 11:48 pm
by Solomon
Joaz Banbeck wrote: @Araban:
How would you handle something like this, in which white sacrifices the peeping stone?
$$Wc
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wc( if 2 at 'a' then 3 at 'b' and 5 at 3 etc )
Well for sure not 2 at 'a', that is unthinkable. Up to
in your main variation though, there isn't much else other than to play H3 and eat
. Trying to break out with a move like G6 will only strengthen the outside. While this entire exchange may feel painful for Black, it's also worth noting that there were 3 White stones at the bottom against my single stone, and the situation you pose is where I get another move elsewhere (so there should be a Black stone around C11 or something). In a sense, it's like White is investing 4 moves on 1 stone, therefore I can't expect an even result. Living sealed in is fair, especially if I get the wedge in the left.
Re: 24. Tabemasu (7d) vs. Araban (5d)
Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2010 10:26 am
by Tabemasu
$$c Move 30
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$c Move 30
Re: 24. Tabemasu (7d) vs. Araban (5d)
Posted: Sun Jun 20, 2010 5:56 pm
by Solomon
$$c Move 31
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$c Move 31
$$c Move 31
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$c Move 31I'm a bit divided on whether this move is an overplay or not. However I'm terrible at what they call "paratrooper" moves, or moves that aim to reduce rather than invade moyos. Yeah yeah, I'm aware of concepts like sector lines and all that jazz, but I don't think it's always that simple - especially in this case. The way I look at it right now is that White can only pressure the last move from one direction, such as 'a' or 'b'. I have plenty of enough space to make a two-space extension from my stone regardless of which way he chooses to pressure, so life shouldn't be too hard to find here. The problem is making sure I don't get squished from all directions and eek a tiny sealed group that lives while White gets super thickness and influence everywhere as a result of the attack.
40/80
Re: 24. Tabemasu (7d) vs. Araban (5d)
Posted: Sun Jun 20, 2010 7:33 pm
by Joaz Banbeck
I wish that he would play with such recklessness in his game against me.
This feels like an overplay. First, it is aji keshi, for the natural move at 'a' helps patch white's weak spot at 'b'. Second, it is aji keshi on the lower side too, for after black's probable extension to 'c', white will block, and this protects the cut at 'd' which would otherwise be a problem after black plays 'e'.
$$c Move 31
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$c Move 31Last, white may play something like 'f', limiting the options of the marked stones if/when white cuts at 'g'.
Re: 24. Tabemasu (7d) vs. Araban (5d)
Posted: Sun Jun 20, 2010 10:54 pm
by ketchup
Joaz Banbeck wrote:
I wish that he would play with such recklessness in his game against me.
This feels like an overplay.
Re: 24. Tabemasu (7d) vs. Araban (5d)
Posted: Mon Jun 21, 2010 1:05 am
by daniel_the_smith
Re: 24. Tabemasu (7d) vs. Araban (5d)
Posted: Mon Jun 21, 2010 2:10 am
by Harleqin
REPOST with working diagram
Posted: Mon Jun 21, 2010 7:20 am
by Joaz Banbeck
I wish that he would play with such recklessness in his game against me.
This feels like an overplay. First, it is aji keshi, for the natural move at 'a' helps patch white's weak spot at 'b'.
Second, it is aji keshi on the lower side too, for after black's probable extension to 'c', white will block, and this protects the cut at 'd' which would otherwise be a problem after black plays 'e'. White can play 'h', which makes it hard to get a second eye along the edge. If 'e' is sente to cut at 'd', then black lives easily with 'i'. But if the cut has been covered, then white plays 'i' himself, and black is seeking an eye in the center of the board.
$$c Move 31
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$c Move 31Last, white may play something like 'f', limiting the options of the marked stones if/when white cuts at 'g'.
Re: 24. Tabemasu (7d) vs. Araban (5d)
Posted: Mon Jun 21, 2010 9:09 am
by Violence
Re: 24. Tabemasu (7d) vs. Araban (5d)
Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2010 11:26 am
by Tabemasu
$$c Move 32
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$c Move 32
His move on the left is very good, perhaps I was a bit too greedy. I can't figure out any decent way to attack it, so I'm just going to tenuki and attack the bottom group. After my move, he only has one eye, and must run away. After 4, it's up to him how he's going to run away, he can play 'a','b' or 'c'.
$$c
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$cSorry about not posting very often, I keep forgetting
is obvious, I want to ensure that I'm connected to the outside. While playing 'a' may give me a bigger corner, it would nonetheless end up sealed and this is not satisfactory. I should have thrown this move in to the trigger as well...though maybe that would not have mattered since it seems Gus isn't up for triggers :/. I expect White to play 'b' either immediately or later, it's a big move but not urgent. 
. So 
is at F6, then Black responds with H4. But if White plays something else to try and seal Black in as much as possible at the bottom:
- 
exchange can be considered helpful for Black since Black gets some air into the center (note the bad connection relationship between F6 and J4, which will help me to break out in the event that White tries to strike at 'a') and of course still maintains sente. Another move will not be necessary after 
in your main variation though, there isn't much else other than to play H3 and eat 
. Trying to break out with a move like G6 will only strengthen the outside. While this entire exchange may feel painful for Black, it's also worth noting that there were 3 White stones at the bottom against my single stone, and the situation you pose is where I get another move elsewhere (so there should be a Black stone around C11 or something). In a sense, it's like White is investing 4 moves on 1 stone, therefore I can't expect an even result. Living sealed in is fair, especially if I get the wedge in the left.