95: Balmung (7k?) vs Aphelion (5k)

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hyperpape
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Re: 95: Balmung (7k?) vs Aphelion (5k)

Post by hyperpape »

@balmung For later
balmung wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm26 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 5 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 O . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . 4 , . 1 . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I probably should have done this instead of take the 30 point play in the upper right, but now either he gives me the corner or outside influence based on what joseki he picks and how he plays it. The game might be very close soon
This is usual with the low chinese fuseki, I think it's fine with the high. It doesn't give black either the corner or outside influence--just a group that will have to take care of itself. I'm not sure this is the right play here, but white is not obligated to give you either outside influence or the corner.

Oh, that's not a criticism of your move, mind you.
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Re: 95: Balmung (7k?) vs Aphelion (5k)

Post by Aphelion »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm28 Captured Stones: :white: 0 :black: 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . W . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


First some thoughts: I think my other earlier move with the high Chinese isn't the best. It aims for a fight to build either the left or top, but with Black being so solid in both corners I don't know if a fight is exactly what I want. Its not game-losing, but probably a little sub optimal.

Now, I think Black is being too jealous here, jumping directly in to the pre-pincer. I think I am starting to see a trend for the game. I excel at punishing these kind of overly jealous players, so I think I will be very comfortable. I would have played like this as black:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm27
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . 1 . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . 3 , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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daniel_the_smith
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Re: 95: Balmung (7k?) vs Aphelion (5k)

Post by daniel_the_smith »

That play in the upper right was 30 points? I'd say more like 10.
That which can be destroyed by the truth should be.
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Re: 95: Balmung (7k?) vs Aphelion (5k)

Post by balmung »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm28 Captured Stones: 0 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . B O . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
“I’m here to play go and chew bubble gum, and I’m all out of gum”- misquoted duke nukem
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Re: 95: Balmung (7k?) vs Aphelion (5k)

Post by Aphelion »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm30 Captured Stones: :white: 0 :black: 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Re: 95: Balmung (7k?) vs Aphelion (5k)

Post by Aphelion »

Balmung, its your move :)
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Re: 95: Balmung (7k?) vs Aphelion (5k)

Post by balmung »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm30 Captured Stones: 0 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . B . O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

college keeps me so busy.
“I’m here to play go and chew bubble gum, and I’m all out of gum”- misquoted duke nukem
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Magicwand
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Re: 95: Balmung (7k?) vs Aphelion (5k)

Post by Magicwand »

for obs:
if you are sdk then remember that below shape can not be good.
i remember something similar happened on topazg's game and i also said it can not be good.

word of advice:
do not try to analyze why it is bad..just remember it is a bad shape then you dont have to think.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm30 Captured Stones: 0 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . B . O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
"The more we think we know about
The greater the unknown"
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Re: 95: Balmung (7k?) vs Aphelion (5k)

Post by Aphelion »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm32 Captured Stones: W 0 B 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O W . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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EdLee
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Post by EdLee »

For observers:
Magicwand wrote:remember that below shape can not be good.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ -----------------
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . O . . . . .
$$ | . . X O . . . .
$$ | . . . B . O . .
$$ | . . . X . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .[/go]
Normal:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -----------------
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . O . . . . .
$$ | . . X O . . . .
$$ | . . 1 . . O . .
$$ | . . . X . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .[/go]
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topazg
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Re: Re:

Post by topazg »

Helel wrote:
I was actually able to find three pro games where the former was played:





Thank you, I was biting my tongue on that one, I'm glad someone else did it ;)
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Re:

Post by judicata »

Not for players:

EdLee wrote:
Magicwand wrote:remember that below shape can not be good.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ -----------------
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . O . . . . .
$$ | . . X O . . . .
$$ | . . . B . O . .
$$ | . . . X . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .[/go]
Normal:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -----------------
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . O . . . . .
$$ | . . X O . . . .
$$ | . . 1 . . O . .
$$ | . . . X . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .[/go]



I like Ed Lee's characterization of the second diagram as "normal" rather than "correct." The more I play, the more I believe that there is rarely an "only" move (setting aside life & death issues). The player's reason for a move, I think, is really important. Pros make stupid-looking moves sometimes because they have a special reason. But it is like learning a language--generally, you should learn the "rules" and the "proper" way to write/say something, but then you can break the rules when the situation calls for it.

So I think it is important to teach people the "normal" or "proper" move; if a player considers the normal move and decides it isn't good, then he or she can choose something else.
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Chew Terr
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Re: Re:

Post by Chew Terr »

judicata wrote:Not for players:

EdLee wrote:
Magicwand wrote:remember that below shape can not be good.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ -----------------
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . O . . . . .
$$ | . . X O . . . .
$$ | . . . B . O . .
$$ | . . . X . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .[/go]
Normal:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -----------------
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . O . . . . .
$$ | . . X O . . . .
$$ | . . 1 . . O . .
$$ | . . . X . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .[/go]



I like Ed Lee's characterization of the second diagram as "normal" rather than "correct." The more I play, the more I believe that there is rarely an "only" move (setting aside life & death issues). The player's reason for a move, I think, is really important. Pros make stupid-looking moves sometimes because they have a special reason. But it is like learning a language--generally, you should learn the "rules" and the "proper" way to write/say something, but then you can break the rules when the situation calls for it.

So I think it is important to teach people the "normal" or "proper" move; if a player considers the normal move and decides it isn't good, then he or she can choose something else.

Exactly. Every 'shape' question is like this, it seems like. Sure, empty triangles are great if you can read a reason why it is important or necessary. However, if you don't have a plan to make use of that specific shape, consider a jump or other 'good shape' move. Similarly, one-space jumps into the center are "normal" when under pressure. Don't play a two-space jump upwards unless you can read a way to keep it from being disconnected reasonably. That is the lesson that I took from Ed's description, too. I would even go so far as to say that I wish people would explain the 'preferred standard shape' more often, when they say something like "This shape is atrocious" or "This leaves aji in your position". I already know that most of my moves are bad, but I don't always know why, or what would be better. =D
Someday I want to be strong enough to earn KGS[-].
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EdLee
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Post by EdLee »

For observers:
For reference: Out of 50,744 games, SmartGo returns the following search results (both local and whole board):
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B 0 (zero) games
$$ -----------------
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . O . . . . .
$$ | . . X O . . . .
$$ | . . . 1 . O . .
$$ | . . . X . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B 1,002 games
$$ -----------------
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . O . . . . .
$$ | . . X O . . . .
$$ | . . 1 . . O . .
$$ | . . . X . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .[/go]
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Tommie
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Re: Re:

Post by Tommie »

Helel wrote:
EdLee wrote:For observers:[hide]
Magicwand wrote:remember that below shape can not be good.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ -----------------
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . O . . . . .
$$ | . . X O . . . .
$$ | . . . B . O . .
$$ | . . . X . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .[/go]
Normal:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -----------------
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . O . . . . .
$$ | . . X O . . . .
$$ | . . 1 . . O . .
$$ | . . . X . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .[/go]


I was actually able to find three pro games where the former was played:

(...)

(...)


Who understands move W60, resp. B61 of the second game,
Kim_Hyo-kon--An_Yeong-kil.sgf?

Could s.o. of this forum pls. explain to me, why it would be disadvantageous for B to cut with B61?

___________________________________________________________

The criticised move is technically a bump with a hane already played.
This reminds me of this sequence:
[url]3-4 point high approach, two-space high pincer, bump
http://senseis.xmp.net/?34PointHighAppr ... PincerBump

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc development of the bump
$$ -------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 1 4 2 . . 3 . ,
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
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[/url]
Greetings,
Tommie

3dan EGF (AGA no 13477) || Tommie on KGS: 'June'|| DGS: 'Zhi Laohu' 纸老虎 = 'paper tiger' || Senseis : http://senseis.xmp.net/?tderz ||
ENFP (MBTI) - 'Find your own style within the Fundamentals of Go! '
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