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Re: 98. Araban vs. Magicwand
Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 6:31 pm
by Magicwand
$$Bcm21 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm21 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
since this game's main purpose is to teach skd's:
did everyone get the direction i blocked?
in my opinion this is the only move for white.
if i block it from other side...see below.
black will live comfortablely and i will have nothing but eggshell.
$$Bcm21 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm21 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0all i see sofar is ko. i dont know what he has in mind..but i will soon findout.
$$Bcm25 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm25 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
Re: 98. Araban vs. Magicwand
Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 6:55 pm
by Joaz Banbeck
Magicwand wrote: ...all I see so far is ko...
$$Bcm25 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm25 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0...
I have fuzzy memories of this being considered playable:
$$Bcm25 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm25 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0...which continues like this:
$$Bcm25 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm25 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0Now white ends in sente, but the aji at
can become a problem for white:
$$Bc Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bc Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0Now 'a' and 'b' are miai.
Re: 98. Araban vs. Magicwand
Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 7:53 pm
by Jedo
Re: 98. Araban vs. Magicwand
Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 8:35 pm
by Magicwand
each corner with one stone ..i value them as 5 points each.
and he has bottom which is about 12 point + alpha.
white has 6.5 komi and top influence worth morethan 10 points imo.
now...according to my calculation if i can get sente and approach 'a' as below then i will be ahead.
i have a feeling he is playing too timid game and might lose the flow and lose.
in my experience if you dont take a chance you will usually lose.
i guess lee chang-ho is very rare player that can play timid and still win.
between two equal strength players agressive players usually win.
that will be me
$$Bcm21 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm21 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
Re: 98. Araban vs. Magicwand
Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 1:38 am
by Li Kao
Re: 98. Araban vs. Magicwand
Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 3:17 am
by Solomon
$$Bcm21 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm21 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
Re: 98. Araban vs. Magicwand
Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 4:23 am
by Magicwand
$$Bcm21 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm21 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
Re: 98. Araban vs. Magicwand
Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 4:38 am
by Magicwand
another basic count:
now he has about 22 + alpha points.
my all i need on top influence is about 16 ~ 20 points to stay even.
if i get sente i will have even big corner.
also if i approach "a" and if he has to invade..he will have two weak group.
it would be game over if that happens.
i think i am maintaining my komi sofar.
i see so many discussions by obs.
ask me question if you have any question..also let me know if the quality of comments i made sofar.
$$Bcm21 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm21 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
Re: 98. Araban vs. Magicwand
Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 5:40 am
by Solomon
$$Bcm21 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm21 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
Re: 98. Araban vs. Magicwand
Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 5:43 am
by Kirby
@Araban:
Araban wrote: The probe has done its work. There is enough aji in the probe that it can live, but at the same time White is burdened in playing one more move there to eliminate the aji...
Thoguh I thought that I understood the concept of a probe, I do not quite understand what has been accomplished by playing the 3-3.
Namely, the following marked exchange has been made, right:
$$Bcm21 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm21 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0Why not simply leave this option for later?
If this is called a probe, there seems to suggest the possibility that an alternative move might be chosen by MW at a later time. For example, he might play here:
$$Wcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0In this case, you can still live, right?
My main question is, if white's response to the 3-3 does not affect the life/death status of your group, why do you need his answer via a probe right now? Why not simply save the aji for later and immediately enclose the corner?
Re: 98. Araban vs. Magicwand
Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 5:44 am
by Kirby
@Magicwand:
You have been making great comments so far. What do you think about Araban's 3-3 play + tenuki:
$$Bcm21 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm21 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0Was there benefit to playing the 3-3 and then playing away? Would you have played a different way?
Also, are there any major mistakes that you see in this game?
Re: 98. Araban vs. Magicwand
Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 6:03 am
by Magicwand
Kirby wrote: @Magicwand:
You have been making great comments so far. What do you think about Araban's 3-3 play + tenuki:
$$Bcm21 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm21 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0Was there benefit to playing the 3-3 and then playing away? Would you have played a different way?
Also, are there any major mistakes that you see in this game?
kirby:
personally i dont think the probe was necessary. but it is a probe..which means he wont lose any (visible) points.
my reasoning:
1. he had 3x3 point invasion anytime.
2. by marked exchange his one stone on the side loses it's aji making my influence grow.
his style is 100% point oriented game. it will fall apart like janga once it reachs the critical point.
right now i dont have any point pressure because i know i will get compensations out of my influence.
but i think he is starting to feel influence pressure.
even his corner defense i didnt like. if i was black i would play other marked point.
he will need to tradeoff his points for thickness orelse this game will not last too long.
$$Bcm21 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm21 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
Re: 98. Araban vs. Magicwand
Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 6:09 am
by Magicwand
$$Bcm21 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm21 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
Re: 98. Araban vs. Magicwand
Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 6:13 am
by gaius
@ Araban:
Like Kirby, I don't really understand the value of the "probe" at 3-3...
Also, could you explain why you rejected this move?
$$Bc Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bc Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0Locally, I'd say that white does not really have a satisfactory followup, but black does. 'a' is out of the question for white: he'd get terribly overconcentrated, and the corner would still be open. But something like 'b' feels pretty overplayish too, because
might be sente now (at least, I hate
below, but tenuki also doesn't feel right to me...):
$$Bc Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bc Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
Re: 98. Araban vs. Magicwand
Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 6:46 am
by Kirby
@Magicwand:
Thanks for the comments. I can understand your rationale about the probe. In regard to the following comment:
Magicwand wrote: ...
I do not know if my own style reflects it, but I must say that I feel more comfortable with more points - so I can understand someone that likes a "point oriented game".
But you said that you don't have any point pressure because you know you "will get compensations out of my influence".
How can you be certain that you will get compensation? Also, even if you know you will get compensation, how do you quantify it and know that it will be enough to counter the points that black has?
can become a problem for white:
might be sente now (at least, I hate 
below, but tenuki also doesn't feel right to me...):