Life In 19x19

daal wrote:It may be true that KGS is not responsible for lag, but it is not the case, as several posters starting with Mivo (who most accurately hit the thread's nail on the head) have pointed out, that KGS could do nothing to reduce the effects of lag. It's just that they, like me, don't want to.

Placing blame is unproductive, but I agree, it has been entertaining.

I'd been more or less avoiding this thread because it seemed a bit like a rant thread (and hey, who doesn't love a good rant thread?) but just one thing to consider on these lines (if we're aiming for discussion). A proper lag compensation system requires access to the system clock, which pretty much by definition means native code (which in turn means no longer having a portable java application...or if you use the applet it isn't even an option at all). I am familiar with other servers for other games that do compensate for this, but I don't know of any that are cross-platform compatible (i.e. they are all windows only from my experience as a windows user), and they require downloading / installing an executable program (instead of a of just running a java webstart application).

Mef wrote:A proper lag compensation system requires access to the system clock, which pretty much by definition means native code (which in turn means no longer having a portable java application...or if you use the applet it isn't even an option at all). I am familiar with other servers for other games that do compensate for this, but I don't know of any that are cross-platform compatible (i.e. they are all windows only from my experience as a windows user), and they require downloading / installing an executable program (instead of a of just running a java webstart application).

Can you elaborate on what you mean by "system clock"? Obviously java has the getTime() method, but it seems you might be referring to something more low level, and presumably less hack-proof?

Tofu wrote:Lol, this thread rules!

It even made me change my signature.

The reason that users experience lag on KGS more than on other servers is the basic design principle that KGS will only display your move after one roundtrip to the server and back. (As pointed out somewhere above.) If moves would be displayed directly in the client, things would behave more smoothly. Exact timing of moves within the last byo-yomi second would be no problem at all (try out the asian servers, like Tygem, to see what I mean).

I would say that this is one of the things which made a lot of sense in the past, when connections where much more unreliable and slower than they are today. I guess that if wms would design a server today, he would display moves directly in the client.

SpongeBob wrote:

Tofu wrote:Lol, this thread rules!

It even made me change my signature.

The reason that users experience lag on KGS more than on other servers is the basic design principle that KGS will only display your move after one roundtrip to the server and back. (As pointed out somewhere above.) If moves would be displayed directly in the client, things would behave more smoothly. Exact timing of moves within the last byo-yomi second would be no problem at all (try out the asian servers, like Tygem, to see what I mean).

I would say that this is one of the things which made a lot of sense in the past, when connections where much more unreliable and slower than they are today. I guess that if wms would design a server today, he would display moves directly in the client.

This does not reduce lag, only the perception of it. Of course better feedback gives a faster and smoother experience, but also a more shocking one when it fails. You might see the move on your board, and then lost on time. That would be incredibly upsetting.

Kaya.gs wrote:Of course better feedback gives a faster and smoother experience, but also a more shocking one when it fails. You might see the move on your board, and then lost on time. That would be incredibly upsetting.

The client knows how much time you have for your move and can control that exactly - why would you lose on time?
Lag would be noticed by how your opponents clock runs slower / adjustments to your opponents clock.

Have you played on Tygem? Did you ever lose on time?

quantumf wrote:

Mef wrote:A proper lag compensation system requires access to the system clock, which pretty much by definition means native code (which in turn means no longer having a portable java application...or if you use the applet it isn't even an option at all). I am familiar with other servers for other games that do compensate for this, but I don't know of any that are cross-platform compatible (i.e. they are all windows only from my experience as a windows user), and they require downloading / installing an executable program (instead of a of just running a java webstart application).

Can you elaborate on what you mean by "system clock"? Obviously java has the getTime() method, but it seems you might be referring to something more low level, and presumably less hack-proof?

I believe he meant that you need to access a system counter (eg. the system up time) for a lag compensation system. You can't use system current time because it is too easily changed by the average user. Of course this is does not make it hackproof.

Hello,

daal wrote:It may be true that KGS is not responsible for lag, but it is not the case, as several posters starting with Mivo (who IMO most accurately hit the thread's nail on the head) have pointed out, that KGS could do nothing to reduce the effects of lag. It's just that they, like me, don't want to.

One aspect of my work is representing our technology organisation to our business organisation (then representing the business to the technical people who have to build what we agreed to). Much of the interaction follows a very similar pattern:

Business : I just thought of a great idea
Technology : That's interesting. This is what it will cost to build it
Business : Are you crazy? It's simple.
Technology : It's simple on the screen and complicated behind the scenes
Business : You need to get creative (and make it future-proof by the way)

And so and so on. This thread echoed much of my working day...

By happy coincidence, I'm going through a similar experience at home. We have a crack in our shower basin. I thought the plumber would be able to fix it in an hour. However, he has to replace the basin, which means digging up the tiles, so my wife wants to change the bathtub, which means that she wants to renovate the entire bathroom. So what I thought would be a $250 fix has turned into a $15-20,000 redevelopment. I don't know anything about plumbing, so I thought something which is complex is easy. Funny...