115 - robinz v. 1986

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Aphelion
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Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Post by Aphelion »

1986:
If you wish to sacrifice (not saying thats good) then this is the move:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm48 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . X X . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . O a O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . O X O X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
If you played at 'a' as in game, you must commit to saving that group. It is way too big to throw away like this.
Robinz:
Both of you can read Ed's comments now.
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1986
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Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Post by 1986 »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm56 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . X X . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . , O . X . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . X O O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . O X O X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


i was thinking i can play a move to expand my moyo, or breakout into the center but i think
i rather take sente,
here are my variations
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm56 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . X X . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 6 4 5 . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . 2 1 7 . . . . , O . X . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X 8 X . . . . . . . X O O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . 9 . . . . . . . . O X O X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm56 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . X X . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . 8 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 6 5 7 . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . 4 1 . . . . . , O . X . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X 2 X . . . . . . . X O O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . O X O X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm56 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . X X . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . 5 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 6 X 3 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . 8 1 . . . . . , O . X . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X 2 X . . . . . . . X O O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . 9 . . . . . . . . O X O X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
standing still means going backwards
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robinz
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Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Post by robinz »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm57 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . X X . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . 1 O . . . . . , O . X . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . X O O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . O X O X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
So, the peep it is! I mentioned in my last post that I'd seen this, and decided I was OK - now that it's happened, I guess I'd better explain. Firstly, the natural connection at D9 doesn't work, as I lose my base entirely:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm57 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . X X . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 4 b . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . 3 2 O . . . . . , O . X . . , X . . |
$$ | . a X 1 X . . . . . . . X O O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . O X O X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
- and I can't get both a and b.

So I connect at :w58: above instead. Clearly white will now push and cut through my one-space jump, but in the following line I have a working ladder:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm57 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . X X . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . 1 O . . . . . , O . X . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X 2 X . . . . . . . X O O O X . . |
$$ | . . 4 3 . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . O X O X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
White can make the other cut instead, of course:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm57 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . X X . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . 1 O . . . . . , O . X . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X 2 X . . . . . . . X O O O X . . |
$$ | . . 5 3 4 . . . . . . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . O X O X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
- this is certainly better for white than the previous sequence, and I don't have everything entirely comfortable. But white is now going to have to watch his C7 stone as well as D9/10 - the C6 clamp now looks interesting, for example. I'm hopeful that between these possibilities I can get some breathing space for my group. (It also now occurs to be that :b61: above at D7 instead may well work - so there's some more reading to be done :study:)
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robinz
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Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Post by robinz »

Aphelion wrote:Robinz:
Both of you can read Ed's comments now.
Thanks, I have, and have the following question for Ed, or any other observer (hidden, both to keep things tidy, and in case 1986 doesn't want to look yet):
Sure, I see that the shape is bad, in the sense that I get disconnected. But surely that is only so terrible if I had a way to stay connected, which, by that point in the game anyway, I surely didn't have. (Probably my :b31: was wrong, as you said.) As I explained in my comment to that :b35:, I was trying to give eyespace to my lower-right group (and in sente too) - was I wrong to worry about it? (It wasn't an entirely passive measure either - I wanted to attack white's invasion, and that is easier when I don't have so many weaknesses of my own to worry about.) What move would you have recommended instead, and with what plan?

Thanks in advance - handling invasions is one of the areas of the game I feel least comfortable with, so I'd love to hear what a strong player like you thinks :D
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1986
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Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Post by 1986 »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm58 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . X X . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . , O . X . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . X O O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . O X O X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
lets see if the i my variations work this time :geek:
standing still means going backwards
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robinz
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Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Post by robinz »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm59 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . X X . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . , O . X . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . X O O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . O X O X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
My first reaction was that, since white has neglected to push and cut, I should solidly connect at D9. I still think this would be OK - but I think this is better (it does after all follow the proverb about how to respond to an attachment). By taking a liberty away from white, things can now get tough for him if he pushes and cuts now - whichever cut he chooses, D11 is double atari, and settles me nicely whichever capture I get to make. For this reason, I conclude that this hane is better than immediately connecting - I can always connect later if nothing better presents itself.

If he crosscuts straight away, I also get to capture something. So I expect to see a connection at D11 or extension to E12, but either way I think I can still cause him problems, especially since my stones are now getting close to his corner (and perhaps even, in some lines, getting close to connecting to my group on top).

There is a lot going on here, too much for me to read everything - but last time we had a contact fight, over on the other side of the board, I came out well, so I can hope for more of the same :lol:
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1986
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Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Post by 1986 »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm60 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . X X . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . 1 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . , O . X . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . X O O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . O X O X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm60 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . X X . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . 1 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . , O . X . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . X O O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . O X O X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
i would go further but i rather see if he protects or pushes in the actual game
standing still means going backwards
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robinz
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Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Post by robinz »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm61 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . X X . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . , O . X . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . X O O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . O X O X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
OK, not one of the moves I said I expected, but at least I anticipated it for once ;-) At first I thought this was rather easy for me - I get to capture something, and am then more or less completely alive, and still with easy access to the centre.

However, while typing this post I saw that he has the following:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm61 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . X X . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 4 X O 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 6 5 1 . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O 3 . . . . , O . X . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . X O O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . O X O X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
This is a little worrying - I'm sure I won't die here, but I'll have to scramble a bit into the centre in order to live, meaning I can't yet tenuki and invade where I want to). But, after looking at the alternatives, I'm sure :b61: is my best move, and the above position is hardly disastrously bad for me, especially as it's my move. (I am tempted to play :b67: at F12, but will read some more and look around for alternatives.)
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1986
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Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Post by 1986 »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm62 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . X X . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . , O . X . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . X O O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . O X O X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
alright, see last post,
I'm about to see whether he pushes or connects here
then i will go from there
standing still means going backwards
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robinz
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Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Post by robinz »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm63 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . X X . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O 1 . . . . , O . X . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . X O O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . O X O X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
I guess he's going to play out the line I gave in my last post. Let's see how this goes...
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EdLee
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Post by EdLee »

robinz,
robinz wrote:Sure, I see that the shape is bad, in the sense that I get disconnected. But surely that is only so terrible if...
No. It's fundamentally bad. Of course, there are exceptions when you must play this kind of broken shape, but in general it's bad, as it is here.
The first thing to understand is that the shape :b35: is fundamentally bad for B.
It's like learning about the empty triangle -- often it is bad, but not always, so we learn the exceptions later.
robinz wrote:(Probably my :b31: was wrong, as you said.) As I explained in my comment to that :b35:,
I was trying to give eyespace to my lower-right group (and in sente too) - was I wrong to worry about it?
The problem is earlier: :b31: was bad; you probably have read Post #44 already.
So the cause was :b31:, and now we're seeing the symptoms and trying to control the damage.
If you want eye space, you can descend to (a), or, you can jump out to (b). But not (c).
Also, not all sentes are good. :b35: was a very bad sente. :)
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . X X . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . c . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O a . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]
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lightvector
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Re:

Post by lightvector »

@robinz
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . X X . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . b |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O 2 . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . a . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]
This exchange is not good because you haven't significantly limited white's ability to jump into your base. White can still hop in at a, just like he could before :b1: . However, white has gained at least the ability to monkey jump at b in the endgame. Also, white has gained a little invasion/reduction potential because black's 3 stones are weaker now.

I'm sure you know what it feels like when your opponent makes a monkey jump in the endgame and suddenly all the territory seems to vanish. This exchange costs a lot of points because of this, and in return all you get is a not-really-defended base that white can still hop into unless you spend yet another move.
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Post by EdLee »

robinz, lightvector,
Even if we eliminate all the life-and-death and endgame issues
(by adding the :bc: stones), the :b1: :w2: exchange is still bad because it is
a fundamentally broken shape for B:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$-----------------
$$. . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . |
$$. . O . O O O . |
$$. . . X X X O . |
$$. X . . . X X . |
$$. . . . . O . . |
$$. . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . X . . . |
$$. . . . , X B . |
$$. . . . O X . . |
$$. . . . O O 2 . |
$$. . . . . 1 . . |
$$. . . . X . . . |
$$. . . . . . B . |
$$. . . . X . . . |
$$. . O . . X . . |
$$. . . . O B . . |
$$. . . . . . . . |
$$----------------[/go]
It is still bad even if we flip it -- now it has nothing to do with life-and-death, the endgame, or monkey jumps:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$. . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . X . . |
$$. . . . X . . . |
$$. . . . X O . . |
$$. . . 2 O O . . |
$$. . . . 1 . . . |
$$. . . . . X . . |
$$. . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . , X . . |
$$. . . . X . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . |
$$----------------[/go]
The main thing for robinz (and 1986) to understand is this broken shape for B:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$. . . . . . . .
$$. . . . X . . .
$$. . . O O O . .
$$. . . . X . . .
$$. . . . . . . .[/go]
All the other stuff is also bad for B, yes, but it's collateral damage;
the main lesson here is the broken shape.
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1986
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Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Post by 1986 »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm64 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . X X . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 1 . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O X . . . . , O . X . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . X O O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . O X O X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
i found something to attack :cool: , lets see how he reacts
i was going to put up some variations but nothing is going according to plan
so now my plan is to embrace the chaos and adapt to it to the best of my ability
standing still means going backwards
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lightvector
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Re:

Post by lightvector »

EdLee wrote:robinz, lightvector,
Even if we eliminate all the life-and-death and endgame issues
(by adding the :bc: stones), the :b1: :w2: exchange is still bad because it is
a fundamentally broken shape for B:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$-----------------
$$. . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . |
$$. . O . O O O . |
$$. . . X X X O . |
$$. X . . . X X . |
$$. . . . . O . . |
$$. . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . X . . . |
$$. . . . , X B . |
$$. . . . O X . . |
$$. . . . O O 2 . |
$$. . . . . 1 . . |
$$. . . . X . . . |
$$. . . . . . B . |
$$. . . . X . . . |
$$. . O . . X . . |
$$. . . . O B . . |
$$. . . . . . . . |
$$----------------[/go]
It is still bad even if we flip it -- now it has nothing to do with life-and-death, the endgame, or monkey jumps:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$. . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . X . . |
$$. . . . X . . . |
$$. . . . X O . . |
$$. . . 2 O O . . |
$$. . . . 1 . . . |
$$. . . . . X . . |
$$. . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . , X . . |
$$. . . . X . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . |
$$----------------[/go]
The main thing for robinz (and 1986) to understand is this broken shape for B:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$. . . . . . . .
$$. . . . X . . .
$$. . . O O O . .
$$. . . . X . . .
$$. . . . . . . .[/go]
All the other stuff is also bad for B, yes, but it's collateral damage;
the main lesson here is the broken shape.
I take issue with saying that it's "fundamentally bad" because it's unhelpful to the beginner trying to learn why. Shapes are typically good or bad in Go because they are better or worse at certain goals. These goals can include creating eyeshape, maximizing the efficiency of your stones, minimizing opponent forcing moves, connecting one's stones, etc.

In your first diagram, it is bad because it gives up possibilities such as playing :b1: at :b2: and connecting under, as well as increases white's liberties from 6 to 7. I think it also gives white some minor forcing moves.

In your second diagram, it is bad because it allows white to get ahead of black, and white becomes extremely hard to surround. Moreover, black can definitely no longer connect, or even threaten to connect his stones. It again also increases white's liberties.

The overall theme for *why* this shape is bad is because in general, black becomes very strongly cut, and white ends up poking out and hard to contain, and stronger than before. Near the edge, "poking out and hard to contain" manifests itself as "able to play monkey jump and hop into base". In the center, it manifests as "gets ahead of black in the running battle and becomes un-surroundable". In both cases, if black previous had even the slightest hope of connecting, or even the hope of threatening to connect, it's gone.

Just saying something that amounts to "it's bad because I said so" is less helpful, especially if they gave reasons for why they thought the move was good and you don't refute these reasons.
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