[go]$$Bcm51 No Prisoners $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . X . . O X . . X O . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . O . X . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . X . . X 4 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . X . O O . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . | $$ | . . X X O O . . . , . . . O . X O O . | $$ | . X O O . . . . . X . . . . . X O X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Re: 135. daniel_the_smith (2d) vs Fuego (bot)
Posted: Wed Sep 21, 2011 8:47 am
by bayu
magicwand and obs:
Can you please write, why w54 was incorrect?
I liked whites answer (from a 3kyu perspective) because it gets access to destroy the black center and reinforces the corner. Actually, I would have played at the submissive spot fuego considered (R15), lacking any good ideas. So I was sure that the winning chance prophecy by fuego would drop after the actual game move w54. I was wrong again. Enlightenment highly appreciated.
Re: 135. daniel_the_smith (2d) vs Fuego (bot)
Posted: Wed Sep 21, 2011 9:02 am
by Magicwand
bayu wrote:magicwand and obs:
Can you please write, why w54 was incorrect?
I liked whites answer (from a 3kyu perspective) because it gets access to destroy the black center and reinforces the corner. Actually, I would have played at the submissive spot fuego considered (R15), lacking any good ideas. So I was sure that the winning chance prophecy by fuego would drop after the actual game move w54. I was wrong again. Enlightenment highly appreciated.
this is better than actual game. but it is wrong because black can tenuki and white can not do too much damage on black.
$$Bcm51 No Prisoners $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . X . . O X . . X O . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . O . X . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . 4 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . X . . 3 . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . X . O O . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . | $$ | . . X X O O . . . , . . . O . X O O . | $$ | . X O O . . . . . X . . . . . X O X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$Bcm51 No Prisoners $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . | $$ | . . . . . O . X . . O X . . X O . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . O . X . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . a . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . X . . 3 . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . 4 O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . X . O O . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . | $$ | . . X X O O . . . , . . . O . X O O . | $$ | . X O O . . . . . X . . . . . X O X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Re: 135. daniel_the_smith (2d) vs Fuego (bot)
Posted: Wed Sep 21, 2011 12:36 pm
by mitsun
I had the same reaction as MagicWand -- the marked W move leaves the corner too thin; B has too many invasion points. If W tries to block all incursions, he gets into trouble fast:
$$B $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 3 . . | $$ | . . . . . O . X . . O X . . X O . 7 . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . O . X . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . 6 5 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . X . . X . . 1 . | $$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . W 2 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . X . O O . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . | $$ | . . X X O O . . . , . . . O . X O O . | $$ | . X O O . . . . . X . . . . . X O X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$Bcm51 No Prisoners! $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . X . . O X . . X O . . . | $$ | . . . X . . 6 8 . O . X . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . X . a . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 7 . . . . . O . X . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . X . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . . . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . X . O O . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . | $$ | . . X X O O . . . , . . . O . X O O . | $$ | . X O O . . . 9 . X . . . . . X O X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
While it may be possible to save those two stones (the weakness at 'a' comes into play if black connects the peep), I feel like defending top left corner comes first. Also, this seems like fuego's style to me.
*Top-top-right may be urgent compared to bottom.
Re: 135. daniel_the_smith (2d) vs Fuego (bot)
Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2011 10:31 am
by emeraldemon
This seems to merit a trigger:
$$Bcm51 No Prisoners $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . X . . O X . . X O . . . | $$ | . . . X . . O . 9 O . X . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . X . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . X . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . . . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . X . O O . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . | $$ | . 8 X X O O . . . , . . . O . X O O . | $$ | . X O O 7 . . . . X . . . . . X O X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$Bcm59 No Prisoners $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . X . . O X . . X O . . . | $$ | . . 6 X . . O . 1 O . X . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . 0 8 7 X 5 3 4 . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . 9 2 . . O . X . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . X . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . . . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . X . O O . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . | $$ | . O X X O O . . . , . . . O . X O O . | $$ | . X O O X . . . . X . . . . . X O X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
I have to run now, search analysis later.
Re: 135. daniel_the_smith (2d) vs Fuego (bot)
Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2011 10:47 am
by daniel_the_smith
I almost want to take the trigger just to ensure that black plays there. But, I think this is potentially a couple of points better. If black still plays , I'll answer as below.
$$Bcm51 No Prisoners $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . X . . O X . . X O . . . | $$ | . . . X . . O . 9 O . X . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . X . 0 . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . X . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . X . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . . . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . X . O O . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . | $$ | . . X X O O . . . , . . . O . X O O . | $$ | . X O O X . . . . X . . . . . X O X . | $$ | . . . . 8 . . . . . . . . . X . X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$Bcm51 No Prisoners $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . X . . O X . . X O . . . | $$ | . . . X . . O 9 . O . X . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . X . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . X . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . . . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . X . O O . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . | $$ | . . X X O O . . . , . . . O . X O O . | $$ | . X O O X . . . . X . . . . . X O X . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Fuego doesn't really have the ability to disassociate the bottom from the top; as far as it's concerned, this is an entirely different position that has to be completely re-evaluated.
Value: 49.0%
Fuego believes that it's behind for the first time since move 13. I think it's at least partly do the diminished aji in the corner: maybe in the past black was winning that corner sometimes in playouts, but not nearly as often now. That said, I think white has done a pretty good job of handling the situation on top, except maybe Q13. I'll be very curious to see if that aji comes into play later in the game.
sequence:
$$Bcm59 No Prisoners $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . 5 . . . 9 . 4 . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 0 6 O 3 X . . O X . . X O . . . | $$ | . . . X . . O 1 . O . X . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . 2 X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . 7 8 . O . X . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . X . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . . . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . X . O O . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . | $$ | . . X X O O . . . , . . . O . X O O . | $$ | . X O O X . . . . X . . . . . X O X . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$Bcm61 No Prisoners $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . X . . O X . . X O . . . | $$ | . . . X . . O X . O . X . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . 6 4 3 X . . . . . . . 2 1 . . | $$ | . . . . . 5 O . 9 O . X . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . 0 . O 7 . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . 8 O . X . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . . . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . X . O O . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . | $$ | . . X X O O . . . , . . . O . X O O . | $$ | . X O O X . . . . X . . . . . X O X . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Value is dropping, and this sequence is looking kind of sketchy.
Re: 135. daniel_the_smith (2d) vs Fuego (bot)
Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2011 9:49 pm
by jts
In the predicted sequence, can anyone explain to me why this is a good time to make the exchange? It seems odd to strengthen the outside before you're ready to follow though.
Re: 135. daniel_the_smith (2d) vs Fuego (bot)
Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2011 3:05 am
by flOvermind
It seems Fuego is losing.
I don't think it is actually behind on the board, but it seems to have switched into "desperate mode". At least that's the impression I get from the predicted sequence.
I'm aware that there isn't actually such a thing as a desperate mode coded into the program. But it's a common emergent behavior of monte-carlo bots, and that's IMHO their biggest (perhaps the only?) systematic weakness.