A beginner's journal of little interest

[Boidhre]

Boidhre,

My wife just might kill me...

Indeed it's a personal value judgment call. Some people are OK with a €480 Prada small purse?!

€1,000 Go set / 40 years = €25/year = €0.07/day. (Even less, if you pass it on for generations.)
One Starbucks coffee (per day) is at least €3? That's 40x more expensive!
I also hear the iPad is about €380 every 2 years...? That's 7x more pricey!

I bought my 57 mm thick shin-kaya Japanese table board (shown in my current avatar) about 10 years ago
for about US$100 (€76 now), so that's €0.02/day, and hopefully it'll last for many more years.

Also, if you've ever tried to build a Go board "from scratch" with zero woodworking skills -- I did --
you'd quickly find out all the nice Japanese Go equipment, given the quality and craftsmanship, is quite a bargain.

...if I spent that much on a set for a game...

Did you know in Chinese, "game" is not the word used for Go and chess? I don't know the current market price for any decent piano or violin,
or for private piano or violin lessons...

(So one may be wise to work slowly up from a €20 Go set... )

I agree about costs spread out over time and the comparison to tech! I've no problem paying for craftsmanship, my current desk cost quite a bit more than what we're talking about for a go set. Thing is, that desk was the last in a long line of desks and I'd view this go set in the same way, I'd be interested in getting the kind of set you describe when I'm a lot stronger in the game as a reward to myself but I don't think it's reasonable now to get it with me being such a new player.

As for calling it a game, well, over here anyway that's not a derisive term for me, chess is called a game but can be taken as seriously as any other profession by its players. I'm one of those people who takes their games rather seriously! Oh and I joke about my wife being angry with me, she'd just mock me ruthlessly over spending a lot on a board and stones at this stage.


Oh, and I have a €20 go set... I just can't stand playing on a cardboard board and plastic stones after playing with glass stones on a wooden one... I'm a salesman's dream really.

[oren]

I have a couple sets, one that gets a lot of use is actually a cheap Korean mdf board and glass stones that works great.

I think Ed's preference for big stones is a bit odd, 8 mm is fine. You can get reasonable 8 mm glass stones and a katsura/shin-kaya board for not too much.

[jts]

I have a couple sets, one that gets a lot of use is actually a cheap Korean mdf board and glass stones that works great.

I think Ed's preference for big stones is a bit odd, 8 mm is fine. You can get reasonable 8 mm glass stones and a katsura/shin-kaya board for not too much.

Many people like it when the stones don't quite fit, and when they get small it can be disturbingly hard to see connections.

[oren]

Many people like it when the stones don't quite fit, and when they get small it can be disturbingly hard to see connections.

What's changing is generally the vertical dimension and not the horizontal. I've seen old slate and shell stones from Japan that were extremely thin.

[jts]

Many people like it when the stones don't quite fit, and when they get small it can be disturbingly hard to see connections.

What's changing is generally the vertical dimension and not the horizontal. I've seen old slate and shell stones from Japan that were extremely thin.

Yes, you're undoubtedly right. I'm thinking of cheap sets I've seen where the stones were both flat and a bit small. But if you're ordering from somewhere that lets you specify the size down to 0.5 mm...

[EdLee]

I think Ed's preference for big stones is a bit odd, 8 mm is fine.

Yet another personal preference call. Taste.

My learning curve/experience:

(All dates approx.)

Code: Select all

2002 Fall. Korean 8 mm glass stones, 0.5" shinkaya Japanese folding board
2004 Dec.  57 mm Japanese shinkaya table board
2004 since ING (9 mm?) plastic tourney stones, weighted inside.
           Like: weight, uniformity, robustness. Dislike: "dirty" white color.
2005 Fall. Thin, single-convex Chinese clay stones. Like the solid snappy placement.
2006 Dec.  Size 33 (9.2 mm) Japanese Snow Grade slate & clam (non-Kuroki).
           Very pretty, but quickly found out a bit too thin.
           Theorized that perhaps Size 36 (10.1 mm) would be "ideal".
           Around now, heard that Cho Chikun's favorite was Size 38 (10.7 mm) --
           did not understand why he would want such "thick" stones.
2007 Mar.  Kuroki Size 36 (10.1 mm) Snow Grade.
           Huge improvement over Size 33 (9.2 mm).
           But soon, found out Size 36 still too thin.
           Began to understand Mr. Cho's preference.
2007 Apr.  Kuroki SAMPLES Snow Grade: Sizes 33, 34, 35, 36.
           Confirmed that Size 36 (10.1 mm) still too thin.
           From Mr. Kuroki: their most popular Snow Grade sizes: 34 (9.5 mm) and 35 (9.8 mm).
2008 Nov.  10 mm Japanese glass stones. OK.
           In use for weekly Go club evening since. (Retired 8 mm Korean glass stones.)
2009 Aug.  Kuroki Standard Grade Size 38 (10.7 mm). Perfect.
           Completely agree with Cho Chikun's preference.
2011       Thin, single-convex Chinese clay stones (different manufacturer). Unusable.

Current favorite remains the same as Cho Chikun's: Size 38 (10.7 mm). YMMV.

[Boidhre]

Ok, so my wife is encouraging me to get a nice board for myself. o_O

[EdLee]

Ok, so my wife is encouraging me to get a nice board for myself. o_O

Keeper.

[Boidhre]

Ok, so my wife is encouraging me to get a nice board for myself. o_O

Keeper.

Yeah, just at the moment I'm struggling with the opportunity cost and the multitude of advice I'm getting arguing both sides of the matter. On one hand I'm a new player and should restrict myself to the cheaper sets, I agree with this. On the other hand I'm someone who really likely nice pieces of craftsmanship and aesthetics and since I intend to keep the interest going I'll probably end up getting a better board in the future if I get a cheaper board now meaning I effectively buy multiple boards.

I feel like I haven't earned a nice set yet and feel like if I got one that I was being presumptuous. On the other hand, I've experienced a social element in go that I know will keep me coming back to it. I'm second guessing myself a lot because I'm a bit low due to sickness (just a sinus/head cold thing), so no decisions being made tonight anyway! That said, my wife knows me very well and if she's encouraging me one way there's probably a damn good reason for it. Decisions, decisions.


I do realise however that it's utterly crazy to be even considering a nice set this early in the hobby! However two things spring to mind: 1) having a nice board would be a motivational factor, 2) why go against my nature? I collect nice things and tend to jump into the deep end, it's what I do pretty much. My wife knows me very well, if she's encouraging something there's probably a reason for it and any spending would come out of my personal cash not family money so it's not like anyone else would be making a sacrifice. For reference: I'm not even considering anything other than glass stones at this point, shell stones can be a reward to myself later on.

[sekoj]

Personally I just love all thin single-convex Chinese stones. They way the just click into place perfectly and STAY there ... unlike any glass, slate/shell, agate etc. that just love to skate around the board like it was an ice rink. Get you sledge hammer out or pick the board up and wander around the house. Single-convex stone will just sit politely in the correct position, also fairly strong against the sleeve tesuji! As well as the single-convex aspect being great for study. They are also ... CHEAP!
Though I do find they need cleaning more often than my agate stones....

My "pretty" set is some stripped agate stones, fairly thin again. They look really nice but are a little too shiny, bit distracting for the eyes after a while. Slate and shell are fine to look at while playing/study and of course also look damn good, but they still slide.

Though, if you do intend on playing irl a bit / some tournament in future. Double convex stones that everyone has in Europe will help you adjust to the non-perfect positioning of the stones on the board that happens in real life games. And I know a lot of people have problems with it coming from online play! I did for a good while, constantly moving them back into their exact positions for ages!

My hates in stones... plastic and glass!

[EdLee]

sekoj,

... unlike any glass, slate/shell, agate etc. that just love to skate around the board like it was an ice rink.

Not an issue with the stones; the problem is the user's skills (or lack thereof).

In the recent movie Tokyo Newcomer / 初到東京 / 東京に来たばかり (2012),
even the top Japanese actor Ms. Baishou Chieko (倍賞 千惠子)
realized her fingers were no match to a pro's,
so they hired a woman Go pro for all the close-ups of the stone placements.

One cannot easily copy over ten years of daily practice with Go stones.
Either you can place a stone like pro, or you cannot --
there is no in-between and there's no faking it. I love it.

[EdLee]

...if I get a cheaper board now meaning I effectively buy multiple boards.

Yes, and multiple stones and multiple bowls. It's part of the normal learning curve.
In pretty much any discipline. I like it.

[SoDesuNe]

Ok, so my wife is encouraging me to get a nice board for myself. o_O

Reverse psychology.

[Boidhre]

...if I get a cheaper board now meaning I effectively buy multiple boards.

Yes, and multiple stones and multiple bowls. It's part of the normal learning curve.
In pretty much any discipline. I like it.

Oh dear...

Ok, so my wife is encouraging me to get a nice board for myself. o_O

Reverse psychology.

Yup. She's cunning.

[sekoj]

sekoj,

... unlike any glass, slate/shell, agate etc. that just love to skate around the board like it was an ice rink.

Not an issue with the stones; the problem is the user's skills (or lack thereof).

In the recent movie Tokyo Newcomer / 初到東京 / 東京に来たばかり (2012),
even the top Japanese actor Ms. Baishou Chieko (倍賞 千惠子)
realized her fingers were no match to a pro's,
so they hired a woman Go pro for all the close-ups of the stone placements.

One cannot easily copy over ten years of daily practice with Go stones.
Either you can place a stone like pro, or you cannot --
there is no in-between and there's no faking it. I love it.

Not an issue with placing the stones, its the issue I have with my habit of hitting the table with my knee, then they wander!. So personal preference due to a bad habit! I should change to the normal finger tapping or rocking instead.

At one point I started to think I could host my old little go club with the number of sets I have. Then I remembered, no one around here plays

Anyway best of luck with your purchasing decision Boidhre.