[go]$$cm71 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X . . X X X . . | $$ | . . . O O . O . . . O . X . O . O . . | $$ | . O X O X . . . . O . . O . O , O . . | $$ | . O O X X . . . . . . . . . O X X . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . O X O . . . | $$ | . O . X . . . . . . . O . X X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . a . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . X 1 X O . . O . . X . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . O 2 . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . b . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X O X . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . O X O X O . . . O . . O . X . . . . | $$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
at which point a or b looks playable for me. I will probably go for b, since it is expends my moyo while reducing W, whilst a doesn't really make territory yet for W. White b would make a resonable moyo.
Re: #201 drmwc vs lovelove
Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 7:28 am
by Magicwand
why not below???? this seems more logical IMO.
$$cm71 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X . . X X X . . | $$ | . . . O O . O . . . O . X . O . O . . | $$ | . O X O X . . . . O . . O . O , O . . | $$ | . O O X X . . . . . . . . . O X X . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . O X O . . . | $$ | . O . X . . . . . . . O . X X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . X . X O . . O . . X . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X O X . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . O X O X O . . . O . . O . X . . . . | $$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$cm1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X . . X X X . . | $$ | . . . O O . O . . . O . X . O . O . . | $$ | . O X O X . . . . O . . O . O , O . . | $$ | . O O X X . . . . . . . . . O X X . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . O X O . . . | $$ | . O . X . . . . . . . O . X X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . X . X O . . O . . X . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X O X . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . O X O X O . . . O . . O . X . . . . | $$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Re: #201 drmwc vs lovelove
Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 8:00 am
by Magicwand
@Uberdude
below cut can not be good for black. my assessment say that black is ahead so dont need to fight. also...that cut will stablize weak white group on the bottom and erase black influence. all white have to do is play as below to accomplish that.
$$cm71 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X . . X X X . . | $$ | . . . O O . O . . . O . X . O . O . . | $$ | . O X O X . . . . O . . O . O , O . . | $$ | . O O X X . . . . . . . . . O X X . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . O X O . . . | $$ | . O . X . . . . . . . O . X X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . X 1 X O . . O . . X . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . O 3 . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X O X . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . O X O X O . . . O . . O . X . . . . | $$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$cm71 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X . . X X X . . | $$ | . . . O O . O . . . O . X . O . O . . | $$ | . O X O X . . . . O . . O . O , O . . | $$ | . O O X X . . . . . . . . . O X X . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . O X O . . . | $$ | . O . X . . . . . . . O . X X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . X 1 X O . . O . . X . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . O 3 . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X O X . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . O X O X O . . . O . . O . X . . . . | $$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Re: #201 drmwc vs lovelove
Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 8:07 am
by Uberdude
@MW,
Yeah, that cut didn't look very good to me either, just trying to find some reason for black's h10, and taking away white h9 sente makes the cut work a bit better perhaps, though still not good.
Re: #201 drmwc vs lovelove
Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 10:11 am
by drmwc
$$cm71 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X . . X X X . . | $$ | . . . O O . O . . . O . X . O . O . . | $$ | . O X O X . . . . O . . O . O , O . . | $$ | . O O X X . . . . . . . . . O X X . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . O X O . . . | $$ | . O . X . . . . . . . O . X X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . X X X O . . O . . X . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X O X . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . O X O X O . . . O . . O . X . . . . | $$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$cm71 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X . . X X X . . | $$ | . . . O O . O . . . O . X . O . O . . | $$ | . O X O X . . . . O . . O . O , O . . | $$ | . O O X X . . . . . . . . . O X X . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . O X O . . . | $$ | . O . X . . . . . . . O . X X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . X X X O . . O . . X . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X O X . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . O X O X O . . . O . . O . X . . . . | $$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Including a reply to Ubderdude:
As before, this moves stabilises blacks group, remove W's moyo and gives me many cuts to aim at later. I still haven't found a fierce attack against my ponnuki.
In terms of the rough count I gave earlier, B has gained around 10 points on the RHS (more if I can enclose the corner finally), and points on the LHS. W may gain 10-15 points in the centre form the previous count, although this will take another move, so I believe that the game is slightly in B's favrou
Alternatives for this move included:
$$cm71 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X . . X X X . . | $$ | . . . O O . O . . . O . X . O . O . . | $$ | . O X O X . . . . O . . O . O , O . . | $$ | . O O X X . . . . . . . . . O X X . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . O X O . . . | $$ | . O . X . . . . . . . O . X X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . 3 1 . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . X X X O . . O . . X . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . O 2 . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X O X . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . O X O X O . . . O . . O . X . . . . | $$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$cm71 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X . . X X X . . | $$ | . . . O O . O . . . O . X . O . O . . | $$ | . O X O X . . . . O . . O . O , O . . | $$ | . O O X X . . . . . . . . . O X X . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . O X O . . . | $$ | . O . X . . . . . . . O . X X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . 3 . 1 . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , 5 . X . X O . . O . . X . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . 2 O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O X a . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X O X . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . O X O X O . . . O . . O . X . . . . | $$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
This is the natural sequence. W 74 is a good point. If I don't reply at 75, I may become quite thin with these two groups, as shown in the final diagram. Following 75, W can aim at a, for example (which may be payable immediately.)
$$cm71 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X . . X X X . . | $$ | . . . O O . O . . . O . X . O . O . . | $$ | . O X O X . . . . O . . O . O , O . . | $$ | . O O X X . . . . . . . . . O X X . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . O X O . . . | $$ | . O . X . . . . . . . O . X X X . . . | $$ | . . . . 6 . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . 3 . 1 . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . X . X O . . O . . X . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . 2 O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X X . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X O X . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . O X O X O . . . O . . O . X . . . . | $$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$cm75 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X . . X X X . . | $$ | . . . O O . O . . . O . X . O . O . . | $$ | . O X O X . . . . O . . O . O , O . . | $$ | . O O X X . b . . . . . . . O X X . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . O X O . . . | $$ | . O . X . . . . . . . O . X X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . X X X O . . O . . X . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . 9 . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . . . . | $$ | . X X X . . . . O . . 8 . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O X . . . . . . . 6 3 . . X . . . | $$ | . . X O X . . . . , a 2 1 . 5 , . . . | $$ | . O X O X O . . . O . . O 4 X . . . . | $$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
If W negelct to play at 80, I can aim at a.
Following this, I have around 50-55 points on the RHS. Top right is still 5 for me points. I seem likley to get 10-15 points on the left, giving me 65-75 total.
W still has 20 top left, although he can expand this. He has a new central moyo around b with between 5 and 15 points. Bottom left is still 10 points. Lower side group is about 15-20 points. Total is 50-65 points plus komi. So it seems reasonably close, but W will need a very good move on the LHS to make the maximum there whilst restricitng me. I couldn't find anything, so if I'm right I have reasonable winning chances.
Other moves I considered where:
$$cm75 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X . . X X X . . | $$ | . . . O O . O . . . O . X . O . O . . | $$ | . O X O X . . . . O . . O . O , O . . | $$ | . O O X X . . . . . . . . . O X X . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . O X O . . . | $$ | . O . X . . . . . . . O . X X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . X X X O . . O . . X . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . O b . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X X . . . . O . . . c . . . . . . | $$ | . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X O X . . . . , a . . . . , . . . | $$ | . O X O X O . . . O . . O d X . . . . | $$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$cm75 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X . . X X X . . | $$ | . . . O O . O . . . O . X . O . O . . | $$ | . O X O X . . . . O . . O . O , O . . | $$ | . O O X X . . . . . . . . . O X X . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . O X O . . . | $$ | . O . X . . . . . . . O . X X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . X X X O . . O . . X . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . O b . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X X . . . . O . . . c . . . . . . | $$ | . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X O X . . . . , a . . . . , . . . | $$ | . O X O X O . . . O . . O d X . . . . | $$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
a works well if W answers passively, but W may counterattack. d is similar to the game, but W' territory isn't particualrly well defined in the game. b doesn't seem to achieve very much.
c is interesting - it leave the corner open, but if W takes it immediately B is thick on the outside. However, the varation I chose feels more clear cut.
Re: #201 drmwc vs lovelove
Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 3:45 pm
by lovelove
$$cm75 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X . . X X X . . | $$ | . . . O O . O . . . O . X . O . O . . | $$ | . O X O X . . . . O . . O . O , O . . | $$ | . O O X X . . . . . . . . . O X X . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . O X O . . . | $$ | . O . X . . . . . . . O . X X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . X X X O . . O . . X . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X X . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X O X . . . . , . . X . . , . . . | $$ | . O X O X O . . . O . . O 2 X . . . . | $$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------