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Re: Korean opinion: EGC system

Posted: Fri Jul 09, 2010 2:46 am
by Harleqin
I do not think that it is really possible to have both "enough european-only games" and "enough korean-european games" in 10 rounds. However, I do not think that the main tournament should have more than 10 rounds either, and even if it had 14 rounds, I do not believe that the above mentioned conflicting goals would really be satisfied.

The wish list is just too long. Therefore, I predict that all the proposals of this year will be scrapped again.

I can only give the advice to hold off on proposing solutions, and instead focus first on defining the goals and constraints. Note that this cannot be done by voting.

Re: Korean opinion: EGC system

Posted: Fri Jul 09, 2010 2:57 am
by topazg
Harleqin wrote:I can only give the advice to hold off on proposing solutions, and instead focus first on defining the goals and constraints. Note that this cannot be done by voting.


I think this is one of the wisest bits of advice in the whole thread.

Sadly, I think it requires a working group to be set up with a good understanding of all the different viewpoints and enough credibility to be left in charge of defining the problem and producing solutions. There are so many disparate goals here depending on whose "side" you are supporting, that consensus is unlikely to be achievable.

Re: Korean opinion: EGC system

Posted: Fri Jul 09, 2010 9:04 am
by John Fairbairn
Bantari, there is much I find sad in your post. The main sadness is that you appear to have swallowed the activists' claim that this is a bipolar issue between an open and a closed event. This issue is certainly entitled to a fair hearing, but there is a broader overriding issue that needs to be attended to first.

This is the question of how we deal with the hands that feed us. It is a fact of life that sponsorship and support of western go has been and is almost entirely Oriental. And very substantial at that - from governments, companies, professional organisations, individual professionals and individual amateurs. So long as that is the case we need, both as a matter of self interest as well as politeness and gratitude, to pay special attention to the views, perceptions and requirements of the Orientals, even if deep down we don't agree with, or even dislike, their preferences (e.g. Ing rules and clocks).

It is a perfectly valid stance to refuse such support and to hold a close European Championship, or even Congress. I would not consider that discriminatory. But it reeks of the foullest hypocrisy to take the Orientals' money and support and then try to close doors to them (and it is even more hypocritical and cynical to leave doors slightly ajar and pretend they are open).

It would be half-way acceptable, however, if the EGF (by which I really mean European players in general rather than specific council members) publicly declared to the sponsors that they wanted to try to stand on their own two feet and would like to continue taking the money for a short interim period before declaring "independence". The sponsors may not like that and may refuse, but at least it would be a more honest approach by the EGF membership. However, I have seen no evidence of that approach, and since the EGF's treasurer has said that the removal of Ing funding now puts the EGF on course for losing all its reserves within three years at current levels of spending, a declaration of independence at the moment seems an act of supreme folly.

Many of these 'closed' tournaments are in Asia, and many Europeans would give a lot to be able to play in some of them - yet it does not seem such options are even considered. The original letter argues vehemently for Asian/Korean participation in the top European event(s), so how about open the door the other way as well? How would that be for 'spirit of Go'?


This is another very sad point. Ignoring easily checked facts. Foreigners can and do enter tournaments in Japan, Korea and China. In the case of events such as the Agon-Kiriyama Cup (far from the only case) in Japan, these foreigners even get to play Japanese pros. Many of these foreigners are amateurs, some are pros. They visit Japan for this purposse from China and Korea. There is absolutely nothing to stop western players likewise going to Japan and entering these events - except of course that, far from "giving a lot", maybe they expect free air tickets in return for gracing the events with their presence?

Even the supposedly closed events such as the Meijin are actually open in the sense that anyone is entitled to try to qualify to become one of the pros invited by the sponsors to play. Joanne Missingham from Australia entered the pro qualification event in China without living there before or after (and qualified as pro). Many westerners have been accepted as inseis. Some have even qualified as pros and have been allowed to play in Japan and Korea. I'm sure westerners would be welcomed in China, too, but they currently have little chance of making the grade. However, players from Korea, Japan and Taiwan have already been allowed to play professionally inside China.

How about that for the spirit of go?

Re: Korean opinion: EGC system

Posted: Fri Jul 09, 2010 10:03 am
by RobertJasiek
John Fairbairn wrote:I have seen no evidence of that approach


I prefer Europe to become independent financially and concerning teaching. (Catalin seems to have said something similar.) E.g., I think that Europeans could easily fulfil the teaching tasks at congresses. (E.g., the supergroup members could be required to teach in announced teaching events for at least 3 hours during the congress. In some Ing Cups, we participants had to sign that we would teach if desired, but then nobody asked. This does not mean though that Asian teaching guests would have to be rejected.)

Foreigners can and do enter tournaments in Japan, Korea and China.


The interesting point rather is: May they enter the most important Asian tournaments? Only then one can compare the situation to Europe's most important tournaments.

I do not know much about that but last time I read something related about the Japanese Kisei, there were difficulties for Chinese professionals (except those being member of a Japanese Go association) to participate. Would that be any different for Europeans?

maybe they expect free air tickets in return for gracing the events with their presence?


No. But airtickets are expensive and few want to afford it for that purpose.