Life In 19x19

topazg wrote:

Phelan wrote:I disagree with this. Pattern matching is another tool. If you recognize good shape, you might not need to read. Memorisation and recall(of joseki, openings, etc) is another tool. There are likely others I'm not thinking of right now.

FWIW, I disagree with this In my experience, good shape is invaluable, but never a replacement for reading. What it does make is an excellent reading assistance tool, giving you quick access to good moves to start with in reading out lines.

To follow up on this, good shape is only good shape if it's deployed in the right circumstances. Putting a bamboo joint or table shape in a situation with nothing around it is probably quite inefficient, to take an extreme example.

topazg wrote:

Phelan wrote:I disagree with this. Pattern matching is another tool. If you recognize good shape, you might not need to read. Memorisation and recall(of joseki, openings, etc) is another tool. There are likely others I'm not thinking of right now.

FWIW, I disagree with this In my experience, good shape is invaluable, but never a replacement for reading. What it does make is an excellent reading assistance tool, giving you quick access to good moves to start with in reading out lines.

topazg, the moderator that isn't moderate.

skydyr wrote:To follow up on this, good shape is only good shape if it's deployed in the right circumstances. Putting a bamboo joint or table shape in a situation with nothing around it is probably quite inefficient, to take an extreme example.

I'm not for certain how people with good shape operate, but it seems like there is more to shape than tables and bamboo joints.

I've read this whole thread and I have no idea what's actually being discussed.

It's not possible to play any game without a strategy because your strategy is your goal in the game. Even if you just make random moves, that's a "spray and pray" strategy.

topazg wrote:

Phelan wrote:I disagree with this. Pattern matching is another tool. If you recognize good shape, you might not need to read. Memorisation and recall(of joseki, openings, etc) is another tool. There are likely others I'm not thinking of right now.

FWIW, I disagree with this In my experience, good shape is invaluable, but never a replacement for reading. What it does make is an excellent reading assistance tool, giving you quick access to good moves to start with in reading out lines.

Please note that I said "another tool", not "the only tool", unlike billywoods, who I was disagreeing with.
I never said it was a replacement.

billywoods wrote:

Phelan wrote:While discussion seems to already be on another subject, I don't think anyone mentioned this:

billywoods wrote:That is not what anyone has said. Reading is a tool to help you put your strategy into action. It is also the only tool.

I disagree with this. Pattern matching is another tool. If you recognize good shape, you might not need to read. Memorisation and recall(of joseki, openings, etc) is another tool. There are likely others I'm not thinking of right now.

Perhaps I was unclear. I'm not advocating reading out everything in a position (because most amateurs just can't, and because sometimes reading 2 moves ahead is enough to know you've achieved your goal), and I'm not saying that all reading must be done during the game if you're able to use other shapes you already know to simplify the process. I'm also not denying the use of playing shapes (or joseki, or tesuji...) that someone else has read out and you only have a primitive understanding of, because again there's only so much you can do. But there must be some reading somewhere - it's just that, when you have a strong pattern recognition ability, this reading gets heavily deferred.

Then you're interpreting everything as being "reading". I think that's as silly as saying that everything is strategy.
Joseki is reading, because professionals have read it over and over for us?
I would classify joseki as knowledge, and would classify reading as what you do to see if the corner cases or deviations are better in this particular situation.

billywoods wrote:You can't just shape randomly over the board, or make it your mission to always hane at the head of two or three without checking whether it's good, because you'll get sliced to bits.

You can pretty much play honte and shape moves all around using pattern recognition, or intuition(*starts counting down till Robert appears* :p), it just won't work unless you have perfect(or very good) pattern recognition/intuition. That's why I specifically said: "another tool"
I won't deny that reading is the base for everything else, and a tool that can take you much further than the rest, but I won't accept that it's the only tool.

SmoothOper wrote:

topazg wrote:

Phelan wrote:I disagree with this. Pattern matching is another tool. If you recognize good shape, you might not need to read. Memorisation and recall(of joseki, openings, etc) is another tool. There are likely others I'm not thinking of right now.

FWIW, I disagree with this In my experience, good shape is invaluable, but never a replacement for reading. What it does make is an excellent reading assistance tool, giving you quick access to good moves to start with in reading out lines.

topazg, the moderator that isn't moderate.

Good form on that Ad Hominem, but I think the landing was a little off. 8/10

Phelan wrote:

topazg wrote:FWIW, I disagree with this In my experience, good shape is invaluable, but never a replacement for reading. What it does make is an excellent reading assistance tool, giving you quick access to good moves to start with in reading out lines.

Please note that I said "another tool", not "the only tool", unlike billywoods, who I was disagreeing with.
I never said it was a replacement.

Ah, ok, no problem, I was primarily responding to "...If you recognize good shape, you might not need to read..." - Everything else I agree with completely

Phelan wrote:Good form on that Ad Hominem, but I think the landing was a little off. 8/10

The level of your reading is simply the factor that defines probably around 90% of your playing strength. I made the mistake of studying high level strategy, fuseki, etc. from books at around 5k and I think it was a waste of time. The almost the only books needed until maybe kgs 3d are problem books. It really doesn't matter what you do strategically if your opponent has stronger reading skills than you. Your frameworks will be paper and it will be difficult for you to survive the whole game without making a blunder.

The way I see it is it seems some people in this thread are just trying to justify to themselves that they don't need practice reading for it is hard work. Sure, it's nice and relaxed to read a strategy book compared to wrestling with tsumego, but it's also mostly useless.

Phelan wrote:Joseki is reading, because professionals have read it over and over for us?
I would classify joseki as knowledge, and would classify reading as what you do to see if the corner cases or deviations are better in this particular situation.
...
You can pretty much play honte and shape moves all around using pattern recognition, or intuition(*starts counting down till Robert appears* :p), it just won't work unless you have perfect(or very good) pattern recognition/intuition.

That's kind of my point. As I said, perhaps I wasn't clear:

billywoods wrote:Reading is a tool to help you put your strategy into action. It is also the only tool.

What I meant by this was not that you can't memorise sequences or have good pattern recognition skills. What I meant was that you must then follow this up with reading (is this joseki good in this situation, can this knight's move be profitably cut, do I want to take thickness or territory?), otherwise you are simply guessing, and have no guarantee that your strategy will come into action. Pattern recognition itself doesn't help you put your strategy into action, precisely because it's kind of vague - it helps you decide which of the few hundred empty points on the board to read out. Pattern recognition itself is borne of and strengthened by your reading skills!

Having a strategy in mind is no good if you then follow it up with the wrong shape or joseki - that's well known. As far as I'm concerned, if someone plonks a 3-3 behind my 4-4 stone, I don't choose a joseki at random; I think "do I want a wall? If so, in which direction? Or do I want to double hane and try to take the corner back? If I do that, and my opponent just cuts and connects, do I have the ladder? Do I want to finish in gote, or can I give up some points for sente? Is there a pincer stone that might make that cut annoying?". If you don't do this, you are not reliably putting your strategy into action. If you do this, in an attempt to put your strategy into action, you are probably visualising what they look like on the board, which is a start (and I would say that was a kind of reading - you're reading out a local pattern in a global situation). But the only way to then ensure your strategy will succeed is to check whether your opponent has any devious tricks up their sleeve to thwart your plan, or work out what happens if they play out of joseki, and this is definitely reading.

billywoods wrote:

Phelan wrote:Joseki is reading, because professionals have read it over and over for us?
I would classify joseki as knowledge, and would classify reading as what you do to see if the corner cases or deviations are better in this particular situation.
...
You can pretty much play honte and shape moves all around using pattern recognition, or intuition(*starts counting down till Robert appears* :p), it just won't work unless you have perfect(or very good) pattern recognition/intuition.

That's kind of my point. As I said, perhaps I wasn't clear:

billywoods wrote:Reading is a tool to help you put your strategy into action. It is also the only tool.

What I meant by this was not that you can't memorise sequences or have good pattern recognition skills. What I meant was that you must then follow this up with reading (is this joseki good in this situation, can this knight's move be profitably cut, do I want to take thickness or territory?), otherwise you are simply guessing, and have no guarantee that your strategy will come into action. Pattern recognition itself doesn't help you put your strategy into action, precisely because it's kind of vague - it helps you decide which of the few hundred empty points on the board to read out. Pattern recognition itself is borne of and strengthened by your reading skills!

Having a strategy in mind is no good if you then follow it up with the wrong shape or joseki - that's well known. As far as I'm concerned, if someone plonks a 3-3 behind my 4-4 stone, I don't choose a joseki at random; I think "do I want a wall? If so, in which direction? Or do I want to double hane and try to take the corner back? If I do that, and my opponent just cuts and connects, do I have the ladder? Do I want to finish in gote, or can I give up some points for sente? Is there a pincer stone that might make that cut annoying?". If you don't do this, you are not reliably putting your strategy into action. If you do this, in an attempt to put your strategy into action, you are probably visualising what they look like on the board, which is a start (and I would say that was a kind of reading - you're reading out a local pattern in a global situation). But the only way to then ensure your strategy will succeed is to check whether your opponent has any devious tricks up their sleeve to thwart your plan, or work out what happens if they play out of joseki, and this is definitely reading.

I think Phelan's point is that choosing from a set of memorized invasion sequences for the hoshi, isn't exactly reading novel situations out, and is another method of executing a strategy, which by the way is very popular amongst players of all levels. Of course there are minor details like order of play, none the less in that framework reading is secondary.

SmoothOper wrote:Of course there are minor details like order of play...

An amateur was showing a game of his to Rin Kaiho and said as an excuse for a mistaken line of play, "Well, I only got the order of play wrong."

Rin replied, "Go is the order of play."

(Anecdote courtesy Bill Spight)

billywoods wrote:

Phelan wrote:Joseki is reading, because professionals have read it over and over for us?
I would classify joseki as knowledge, and would classify reading as what you do to see if the corner cases or deviations are better in this particular situation.
...
You can pretty much play honte and shape moves all around using pattern recognition, or intuition(*starts counting down till Robert appears* :p), it just won't work unless you have perfect(or very good) pattern recognition/intuition.

That's kind of my point. As I said, perhaps I wasn't clear:

billywoods wrote:Reading is a tool to help you put your strategy into action. It is also the only tool.

What I meant by this was not that you can't memorise sequences or have good pattern recognition skills. What I meant was that you must then follow this up with reading (is this joseki good in this situation, can this knight's move be profitably cut, do I want to take thickness or territory?), otherwise you are simply guessing, and have no guarantee that your strategy will come into action. Pattern recognition itself doesn't help you put your strategy into action, precisely because it's kind of vague - it helps you decide which of the few hundred empty points on the board to read out. Pattern recognition itself is borne of and strengthened by your reading skills!

Having a strategy in mind is no good if you then follow it up with the wrong shape or joseki - that's well known. As far as I'm concerned, if someone plonks a 3-3 behind my 4-4 stone, I don't choose a joseki at random; I think "do I want a wall? If so, in which direction? Or do I want to double hane and try to take the corner back? If I do that, and my opponent just cuts and connects, do I have the ladder? Do I want to finish in gote, or can I give up some points for sente? Is there a pincer stone that might make that cut annoying?". If you don't do this, you are not reliably putting your strategy into action. If you do this, in an attempt to put your strategy into action, you are probably visualising what they look like on the board, which is a start (and I would say that was a kind of reading - you're reading out a local pattern in a global situation). But the only way to then ensure your strategy will succeed is to check whether your opponent has any devious tricks up their sleeve to thwart your plan, or work out what happens if they play out of joseki, and this is definitely reading.

Ok, this seems more like what I had in mind, yes.

I still don't like to call that kind of visualization reading, since it's very different from looking at the situation move by move, and branch by branch, throughout a move tree.
I'm much more focused on the visual aspect of Go instead of the "reading the move tree" aspect, and the fact that I can play Go like this, when I couldn't really apply it in Chess is one of the reasons that made me switch.
So forgive me if I sound a bit defensive.

I do agree with you that reading is necessary to guarantee the moves work, and that visualization only helps shortcut the reading by making sure you focus on the more interesting moves first.
I'm pretty sure that one of the reasons I haven't been advancing lately is that I have little patience for doing tsumego at the moment.

HermanHiddema wrote:

SmoothOper wrote:Of course there are minor details like order of play...

An amateur was showing a game of his to Rin Kaiho and said as an excuse for a mistaken line of play, "Well, I only got the order of play wrong."

Rin replied, "Go is the order of play."

(Anecdote courtesy Bill Spight)

... and reading is just trying to anticipate your opponents responses?

SmoothOper wrote:

billywoods wrote:

Phelan wrote:Joseki is reading, because professionals have read it over and over for us?
I would classify joseki as knowledge, and would classify reading as what you do to see if the corner cases or deviations are better in this particular situation.
...
You can pretty much play honte and shape moves all around using pattern recognition, or intuition(*starts counting down till Robert appears* :p), it just won't work unless you have perfect(or very good) pattern recognition/intuition.

That's kind of my point. As I said, perhaps I wasn't clear:

billywoods wrote:Reading is a tool to help you put your strategy into action. It is also the only tool.

What I meant by this was not that you can't memorise sequences or have good pattern recognition skills. What I meant was that you must then follow this up with reading (is this joseki good in this situation, can this knight's move be profitably cut, do I want to take thickness or territory?), otherwise you are simply guessing, and have no guarantee that your strategy will come into action. Pattern recognition itself doesn't help you put your strategy into action, precisely because it's kind of vague - it helps you decide which of the few hundred empty points on the board to read out. Pattern recognition itself is borne of and strengthened by your reading skills!

Having a strategy in mind is no good if you then follow it up with the wrong shape or joseki - that's well known. As far as I'm concerned, if someone plonks a 3-3 behind my 4-4 stone, I don't choose a joseki at random; I think "do I want a wall? If so, in which direction? Or do I want to double hane and try to take the corner back? If I do that, and my opponent just cuts and connects, do I have the ladder? Do I want to finish in gote, or can I give up some points for sente? Is there a pincer stone that might make that cut annoying?". If you don't do this, you are not reliably putting your strategy into action. If you do this, in an attempt to put your strategy into action, you are probably visualising what they look like on the board, which is a start (and I would say that was a kind of reading - you're reading out a local pattern in a global situation). But the only way to then ensure your strategy will succeed is to check whether your opponent has any devious tricks up their sleeve to thwart your plan, or work out what happens if they play out of joseki, and this is definitely reading.

I think Phelan's point is that choosing from a set of memorized invasion sequences for the hoshi, isn't exactly reading novel situations out, and is another method of executing a strategy, which by the way is very popular amongst players of all levels. Of course there are minor details like order of play, none the less in that framework reading is secondary.

While you have the gist of what I said right, I'd never say that reading is secondary. Reading is Go. I might not like it, and you might not like it, and I might prefer other tools like visualization and shape, but without reading, we'll never play as well as we could.

Phelan wrote:I have little patience for doing tsumego at the moment.

You and me both. And everyone else, ever.