Life In 19x19

EdLee wrote:Tekesta, not only is that not a digression, but I think you hit a vital point (also related to HermanHiddema's note on western culture).

Which vital point are you referring to, if I have the privilege of knowing? (It would make good food for thought )

I thought the connection between the contents of that article and the very low popularity of weiqi in the US and other Western countries was rather remote. I've realized that today's NBA basketball has a gladiatorial feel that, among US audiences, would not be felt in weiqi. Sometimes in tennis and not very much in golf, but never in weiqi. The story of basketball in America is the story of an underdog demographic overcoming social and cultural barriers to achieve spectacular success. A dramatic example of the American Dream in action, if you will.

The advertising campaigns of the NFL and NBA merit much study, IMHO. It's not enough to simply have a pre-existing cultural preference for a sport. The people must always be reminded of its presence in a way that they find agreeable and exciting.

Splatted wrote:Aren't those both reasonable complaints...?

I don't think books or cinemas will die out any more than real handwritten letters will succumb to emails, or gobans will die at the hands of KGS. The smell and feel of a new book, the nostalgic taste of cinema popcorn, the sense of shared experience in going to watch a film in a group - those things, if you like them, are irreplaceable. But it depends what you want. If what you want is just to play go, you can get that anywhere. If you prefer the idea of go as a relaxed, sociable game that you play with a group of friends or at a club just before going to the pub, and KGS leaves you slightly cold, then that's fair enough - me too - but this thread is about improving the standard of western go, and I don't think people like us are particularly relevant in that setting.

Bantari wrote:I do not believe that for most of us anything would really change in terms of our playing if we doubled or tripled the number of western players.

...no matter how the few of us want to turn back the clock. Will not happen.

It's not a matter of turning back the clock. Sure, the internet is here to stay, and everything including go and go players is at everyone's fingertips, but that doesn't mean that people have stopped wanting to meet in person (hence the cybersex joke). Raising the standard of Western go might not immediately correlate to more people playing it - but it could certainly be a step in that direction. Doubling or tripling the people at the go clubs (which do in fact still exist) would indeed be a change.

Tekesta, it's the difference in the general public's perception/understanding. underlined.

tekesta wrote:that scientists usually formulate theories based on observation.

Like in natural sciences, go theory science has both:

1) first observe, then formulate a theory, then verify the theory for the observation.

2) first formulate a theory, then verify the theory for the observation.

I have successfully used both approaches for research in go theory.

Wouldn't relative newcomers to the game of Go be more receptive to a theoretical explanation after observing - and experiencing - the game firsthand?

Also newcomers can benefit from both approaches. In particular, newbies do not rediscover everything useful by themselves, but need to get input. Such input can be provided with either approach. E.g. the concept of connecting stones:

1) "Look, in this example, Black connects his strings. This idea is useful in general: always reflect whether your strings can be connected."

2) "One of the most basic ideas is to keep one's related stones connected. Look, in this example, Black applies the idea."

At DDK level most players do not have the background experience to make sense of any theory beyond

Therefore, whichever theory is taught to them must be provided to them, if necessary including the background. In additiona, examples do not hurt.

Once the player has gained more experience with which to compare new theoretical explanations, then it is practical to include more information.

Alternatively, the player can receive both new theoretical explanations and more information / background / examples.

tekesta: Perhaps the best book on weiqi I ever saw was an untranslated Chinese edition. I need to go back and look at it. I find the Chinese weiqi books to be very well written. Yutopian's English translations of Chinese publications I regard highly.

which book was it?

one thing i'd like to see is something similar to:

the AGA Japanese book list that goes from about 1901 to 1980 [but with pictures] and all the duplicates/reprintings and magazines taken out and english titles next to the japanese.

Something like Tchan's list of books, but as a timeline like the AGA list

[maybe a ranking system of how usuable the book is without Japanese]

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I'm still waiting for someone to make a site where all the classics of go from the 1930s to the 50s 60s 70s 80s and today are done....

Where the book's importance is noted, and how useful it is to today's go players, and how useful it would be in English one day [if it stands out as a classic]

It's hard to know what books people think are mediocre, and which are outstanding, or if a lot of that has to do with taste, and a lot of books aren't bad.

I'm curious if any 50s 60s books slipped through the cracks with Tchan, or if there's a whole sea of dated books which could be useful/not so useful, like that collection from 2 years ago by that mathematician who had his collection sold with about 300 books [lots of those titles i'm curious about who the publishers were - and how dated they are - contents... etc]




tekesta: Weiqi materials of Japanese origin have been promoted quite heavily so far. It would be good if materials of Chinese and Korean origin were promoted heavily as well. This would help increase the variety of English translations available here in the West.

There's some stuff, but i'm still of the mind there's a lot of Japanese material out there, and I tend to think that it's the Chinese and Korean stuff that's being heavily promoted these days...

also knowing what's been translated in Japanese and chinese or Japanese and korean is important too, and how like one korean series of books, was improved in a Japanese edition with tons of extra commentary [and i think that was done with the Korean 1% books also]

or how some books just 'lifted' some problems from the graded go problem books or Kata Kasudas Tsumego books...but they are 'new' in the other language.


I wonder if there are any japanese sites much like Tchan's that show photos of new or old books, and toss comments, you'd think someone did a nice illustrated timeline, or explained their thoughts on their book collection.


I think it's interesting that chess tournaments could take 50 year old tournaments that there's little interest in, and when someone translates some german or russian and adds some extra grandmaster comments, boom there's a new chess book out - where no one wanted to translate something for decades.

It's only a matter of time when, it's a labour of love, rather than a financial enterprise to translate stuff like chess or go into other languages.

maybe we're lucky that poker books are in english, and unlucky with go books, and chess is a half-win with enough of the german and russian books translated, but the battle still goes on...

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All we can do is spread the word, drop the titles we like in English, Japanese, Chinese, Korean, etc.

daal wrote:It's not a matter of turning back the clock. Sure, the internet is here to stay, and everything including go and go players is at everyone's fingertips, but that doesn't mean that people have stopped wanting to meet in person (hence the cybersex joke).

This perspective seems to mostly apply to the current (and past) generation of adults, and not even all of them. Kids today are comfortable, maybe more than comfortable, conducting their entire social existance online. If you haven't had the experience of joining friends for lunch, only to sit there and watch them spend the entire time texting or tweeting or playing Angry Birds rather than talking and socializing, then you are probably more cut off from the younger generation than you realize. For them, playing games online is not merely a convenience, it is the (preferred) norm. Those of us who would rather play face-to-face are slowly becoming extinct. I fully expect to see the complete demise of physical print, video, and audio media in my lifetime. Gaming, like shopping, will become a purely online experience as well. It really is just a matter of time.

zslane wrote:

daal wrote:It's not a matter of turning back the clock. Sure, the internet is here to stay, and everything including go and go players is at everyone's fingertips, but that doesn't mean that people have stopped wanting to meet in person (hence the cybersex joke).

This perspective seems to mostly apply to the current (and past) generation of adults, and not even all of them. Kids today are comfortable, maybe more than comfortable, conducting their entire social existance online. If you haven't had the experience of joining friends for lunch, only to sit there and watch them spend the entire time texting or tweeting or playing Angry Birds rather than talking and socializing, then you are probably more cut off from the younger generation than you realize. For them, playing games online is not merely a convenience, it is the (preferred) norm. Those of us who would rather play face-to-face are slowly becoming extinct. I fully expect to see the complete demise of physical print, video, and audio media in my lifetime. Gaming, like shopping, will become a purely online experience as well. It really is just a matter of time.

I think you have unusual friends. And maybe should look into getting a more lively set.

If anything, communications technology has caused more face-to-face socializing, not less. You may be forgetting what it was like to organize a casual get-together for six people before cell phones (to say nothing of smartphones). You couldn't get in touch with other people unless they happened to be, like, sitting at home. Next to a plastic box. If I looked at my text messages for the last week, I would bet that 85% are about planning an in-person meeting, or debriefing afterwards.

We are attuned to a lot of things about personal presence that on-line communication doesn't cater to. I'm not saying it couldn't, just that it doesn't. Witness the pervasive use of emoticons. We need little fake yellow faces just to make ourselves understood, never mind enjoying ourselves or building friendships.

Anyway, even on the internet, there aren't that many Western Go players. I think it's important to spread Go so that we have people to enjoy the game with; so that there is a deeper pool of talent for Go players to draw on; so that people who are a good fit for Go can encounter the game earlier in life; and out of respect for the people who worked hard to maintain the standard that we enjoy today.