Life In 19x19

Frankly, if one is trying to determine a perfect komi for a matchup between two people, it follows that it would be the average of their ending point spreads. So, if they've never played before, they should determine komi post-hoc by declaring the game a draw after komi once it has been scored. I think we can all reasonably agree that this would be the correct komi between them for an even game.

skydyr wrote:Frankly, if one is trying to determine a perfect komi for a matchup between two people, it follows that it would be the average of their ending point spreads. So, if they've never played before, they should determine komi post-hoc by declaring the game a draw after komi once it has been scored. I think we can all reasonably agree that this would be the correct komi between them for an even game.

I thought the point wasn't to get the perfect point spread, but to get to be black every-time.

Kirby wrote:Very hard to say a number, huh?

I now think you're being ridiculous. Go and read jts's post. Or think of haggling or betting or poker or any psychological imperfect-information game. There is nothing intrinsically difficult in any of it, and the gains and losses are not very high, but it embodies a mindset I find unpleasant. And, for what it's worth, being sarcastic towards me does not make me find it any less unpleasant.

Bill Spight wrote:

Polama wrote:For people who dislike komi pie for the mind game, it's a question of systemic and random error. Let's say 9.5 is correct komi for amateurs on average. Then half my games I'm advantaged and half my games I'm disadvantaged. It averages out, so I don't really care. We could nigiri for two handicap stones, and I'd win 25-30% even with the handicap, and lose that many giving the handicap, and my average results would be the same. They'd still be fun games of go.

With komi pie, though, if I just go with the 6.5 side every time, and 9.5 is correct, then every game I'm a little behind. Nigiri, I can't change. Correct bidding I can, so it becomes part of the game.

And because komi is going to differ by person, we're in an asymmetric information situation. I sit across from somebody who bids 8.5 komi. Did they calculate that that's correct komi for them, so either choice is fine? Or maybe they're actually a 11.5 komi player, and hoping I take white? But if I take black to counteract that, it may have been a ruse: they prefer white, being happy with a 4.5 komi. So now I've given them a 4 points advantage!

To use the pie analogy, if my friend slices the pie and grabs a piece at random, I don't care. If he cuts one piece larger and then tries to push the smaller one on me every time, I might.

Let's assume that statistically correct komi is 7. But suppose that there is a 9 komi person. What does that mean? It does not mean that when that person plays the average opponent of equal rank, if they take Black their median result on the board is +9, while if they take White, their median result is -5. That would be the case if they were better than average. Proper komi for them is 7, and they have a 2 point advantage either way. What it means to be a 9 komi person is that against the average opponent of equal rank their median result as Black differs from their median result as White by 18 points.

Unless their opponent knows them, they are unlikely to be aware of that fact. So if they set komi at 9, they are indifferent whether their opponent takes Black or White. If they set it lower, an opponent who has heard about them can take advantage. An opponent who knows about them will also set komi at 9. If he sets it lower, the 9 komi player can take advantage by taking Black.

Suppose that you have a 5 komi person. If they set komi at 5, they are indifferent whether their opponent takes Black or White. If they set it higher, an opponent who has heard about them can take advantage. Similarly, if the opponent sets it higher, the 5 komi player can take advantage by taking White.

What if a 9 komi player faces a 5 komi player? Unclear. Do their styles cancel out?

Edit: What this suggests to me is komi bidding. Set komi as the average of the bids (with a half point adjustment as necessary). But then choose Black and White randomly. Bidding should make for closer games.

That assumes symmetrical komi preferences though if I am reading it correctly. What about the case of a person who is fine with 7.5 with Black and 9.5 with White? What is a good bidding strategy for them? Assuming as in your example true komi on average is 7.5, if they bid 8.5 they just encourage their average opponent to take White leaving them disadvantaged and the rarer time they get White themselves they are still disadvantaged. If they bid 9.5 they get a fair game as White but they'll increasingly be taking Black at a greater disadvantage than before. So the rational bid is 7.5, this maximises the chance of getting a game as Black while minimising the damage of getting White (and guards against other players with asymmetrical komi preferences, if we're facing a 6.5 White player then offering 8.5 is suboptimal, assuming blind bidding). This assumes their opponent doesn't know them, if they do (or are familiar with their tournament record) then the bidding strategy changes to 8.5 to have an equal disadvantage to both colours for our player and giving our opponent no preferable option against us so long as they are symmetrically 7.5. So we end up with no advantage at all to a system where komi bidding is used for this person and this is when they are playing someone with standard komi preferences, if they are playing another player with asymmetrical komi preferences the bidding strategy is completely different.

I think Komi Pie works only if preferences are symmetrical, if they are asymmetrical it is a fundamentally bad system for the player.

Edit: I should add all the above is theoretical. I think for at least ranks under dan strength the komi being out by a couple of points won't hugely affect players over the long run.

billywoods wrote:...
I now think you're being ridiculous. Go and read jts's post.

I've already read jts's post. What exactly has he said that hasn't been addressed by what I've already said?

billywoods wrote:Or think of haggling or betting or poker or any psychological imperfect-information game. There is nothing intrinsically difficult in any of it, and the gains and losses are not very high, but it embodies a mindset I find unpleasant.

I agree that it's not difficult. We don't know if gains or losses are high or not, because we don't know what the best number for komi is. I have no idea why you think it is unpleasant. It literally involves saying a single word if you don't care about it, and I can't fathom how saying a single word is all that unpleasant.

In AGA rules, for example, there's the pass stone idea at the end. Do you find that unpleasant?

billywoods wrote:And, for what it's worth, being sarcastic towards me does not make me find it any less unpleasant.

Sure, I can see that. For what it's worth, I am not trying to be mean or anything. Any sarcasm I have is from genuine confusion as to why people think that the komi pie is such a big deal. It seems like such a perfect idea to me.

Kirby wrote:For what it's worth, I am not trying to be mean or anything. Any sarcasm I have is from genuine confusion as to why people think that the komi pie is such a big deal. It seems like such a perfect idea to me.

Well, not trying to be mean or anything, but you behave a little like a dog with a bone. I sympathize - this is where I have to slap myself on the wrist for a lot too. But at some point you have to accept that you said what you needed to say, and now its up to the people to make up their minds. Insisting that you are right and arguing until either all get bored or offended is counter-productive.

Bottom line is: (some) people just dislike the idea of komi pie just as strongly as you like it. And because it is really a matter of preference - i am not sure either of you can really convince the other. So ask yourself this - are you really adding anything of value to your case by such insistance?

Komi pie is, at its ideological core, about the freedom of choice. From this perspective, why not just give people the freedom of choice to not like komi pie. And you can exercise your personal freedom of choice and use komi pie in your own game (whenever supported, like in club games.) I suspect that what you find out is that you will either mostly play White, or mostly play Black, or have to constantly remember results and adjust komi against each specific opponent... or you decide komi is around 6.5 and absolutely nothing will change.

Just my 2 cents.

Boidhre wrote:That assumes symmetrical komi preferences though if I am reading it correctly.

No, I am not talking about preferences, I am talking about game values and strategies. The assumption is that your opponent knows your stats. Otherwise a player with an unusual komi spread has an advantage.

What about the case of a person who is fine with 7.5 with Black and 9.5 with White? What is a good bidding strategy for them? Assuming as in your example true komi on average is 7.5, if they bid 8.5 they just encourage their average opponent to take White leaving them disadvantaged and the rarer time they get White themselves they are still disadvantaged. If they bid 9.5 they get a fair game as White but they'll increasingly be taking Black at a greater disadvantage than before. So the rational bid is 7.5, this maximises the chance of getting a game as Black while minimising the damage of getting White (and guards against other players with asymmetrical komi preferences, if we're facing a 6.5 White player then offering 8.5 is suboptimal, assuming blind bidding). This assumes their opponent doesn't know them, if they do (or are familiar with their tournament record) then the bidding strategy changes to 8.5 to have an equal disadvantage to both colours for our player and giving our opponent no preferable option against us so long as they are symmetrically 7.5. So we end up with no advantage at all to a system where komi bidding is used for this person and this is when they are playing someone with standard komi preferences, if they are playing another player with asymmetrical komi preferences the bidding strategy is completely different.

I think Komi Pie works only if preferences are symmetrical, if they are asymmetrical it is a fundamentally bad system for the player.

Edit: I should add all the above is theoretical. I think for at least ranks under dan strength the komi being out by a couple of points won't hugely affect players over the long run.

In terms of the probability of winning, playing with a 1 point disadvantage is approximately equal to playing even half the time and playing with a 2 point disadvantage half the time. (My guess is that the latter is slightly better, but not by enough to tell.) So if the 7.5-9.5 player picks a 7.5 komi, if the average opponent takes Black just a little more than half the time, the 7.5-9.5 player is at a disadvantage.

In a major international tournament using nigiri, I lost 8 consecuitve nigiris.

If it happens again, I may need to re-think my algorithm when guessing that "It's always odd".

Bantari wrote:Komi pie is, at its ideological core, about the freedom of choice.

Yes, and no. As I said before, Kirby and others are free to try and suggest komi pie as an option between players in any non-tournament game (though I admit that servers make it hard for online play). What this discussion is about is adding an annoying and non-optional epicycle to the game, without having proven that anyone, other than a few guys on a message board, actually prefers it.

While we are at it, we could also improve freedom of choice by devising some bidding process for counting procedures, pass stones, ko, bent fours, points in seki...

P.S. Kirby: my reference to Ayn Rand fans referred to the tendency of many Ayn Rand fans to be rather poor at tolerating disagreement and/or accepting that others may not want to partake of their ideology.

Kirby wrote:It literally involves saying a single word if you don't care about it, and I can't fathom how saying a single word is all that unpleasant.

You can't fathom how adding more choice can sometimes be a distraction? Have you ever gone into a coffee shop wanting a coffee and been forced to choose between a latte, a cappuccino and a macchiato? Or gone into a restaurant wanting a curry, and been asked to choose between dupiaza, jalfrezi, balti and biryani? Have you ever installed a piece of software that popped up 10 dialog boxes asking you which folder you wanted it installed in, whether you wanted it installed with or without support for Esperanto, whether you wanted to associate the never-before-heard-of file extension .xzq with it, and which font size you'd like it in? Have you ever shopped around for the best deal on some investment - a car or a computer, a new mobile phone contract, or even something as small as a loaf of bread - only to find that you were wasting time looking at completely-different-but-essentially-identical deals?

I find it very hard to believe that you've never been even slightly irritated by an overabundance of choice when you'd have been happy with any default option. We face these irritating non-choices a hundred times per day. They're not distressing or difficult, but they grate, that's all. So I don't like komi pie, and at least for my part it certainly doesn't warrant this long discussion.

One thing that just occurred to me is that komi pie changes go from a complete information game to an incomplete information game, because you don't have all the facts when you make your decision about the komi.

hyperpape wrote:

Bantari wrote:Komi pie is, at its ideological core, about the freedom of choice.

Yes, and no. As I said before, Kirby and others are free to try and suggest komi pie as an option between players in any non-tournament game (though I admit that servers make it hard for online play). What this discussion is about is adding an annoying and non-optional epicycle to the game, without having proven that anyone, other than a few guys on a message board, actually prefers it.

I think that each time you are given a 'choice' instead of just being told what to do - one can see it as an 'annoying and non-optional' phase of the process. Even mundane things like picking what you want to eat at a restaurant - instead of just digging into (some) food right away.. you know - having to read these pesky menus, sometimes in weird languages and stuff, very annoying. So I still think that what I said stands - its about freedom of choice.

But regardless - I agree, from my pov it also would be annoying, non-optional phase, not necessary to enjoy the game. So I do not support it. But I have absolutely nothing against Kirby trying to implement it in his games. As long as he is not playing with me.

That's all.

Oh wait... It just occurred to me... if I bump into Kirby in some club, the only way for me to avoid the annoying komi-pie procedure will be to engage in an even more annoying process of trying to convince Kirby that I do not wish to do komi-pie... he might want to run through all the arguments why komi-pie is so good... why I will have to keep repeating that "i don't like it regardless"... over and over... like this thread... nightmare! So maybe its less hassle to just do the darned komi-pie with Kirby.

Or... I know... when I see Kirby - I just run like the wind!!!

Bantari wrote:Oh wait... It just occurred to me... if I bump into Kirby in some club, the only way for me to avoid the annoying komi-pie procedure will be to engage in an even more annoying process of trying to convince Kirby that I do not wish to do komi-pie... he might want to run through all the arguments why komi-pie is so good... why I will have to keep repeating that "i don't like it regardless"... over and over... like this thread... nightmare! So maybe its less hassle to just do the darned komi-pie with Kirby.

Or... I know... when I see Kirby - I just run like the wind!!!

I think that you are confusing Kirby with somebody else.

Bill Spight wrote:

Bantari wrote:Oh wait... It just occurred to me... if I bump into Kirby in some club, the only way for me to avoid the annoying komi-pie procedure will be to engage in an even more annoying process of trying to convince Kirby that I do not wish to do komi-pie... he might want to run through all the arguments why komi-pie is so good... why I will have to keep repeating that "i don't like it regardless"... over and over... like this thread... nightmare! So maybe its less hassle to just do the darned komi-pie with Kirby.

Or... I know... when I see Kirby - I just run like the wind!!!

I think that you are confusing Kirby with somebody else.

Maybe, but I don't think so... which is not to say that there are not others to whom the above also applies.