Life In 19x19

RBerenguel wrote:I think there is a problem here. I'll set aside the fact that I hate generalisation, because it is usually (pun intended) wrong.

balistic wrote:I will never understand why people assume they are better than their actual rating. If that were the case they would be at the said better rating. It's a far better measure than speculating about what you could be.

With the number of rated games I've played in KGS, my rating is still quite unclear. I have also not played a lot lately, and even less, ranked. Since I'm studying the game, even if not playing, I have to assume I'm improving (and since I'm not adding radically new information, I should not be getting worse by trying new things either). In addition to this, I went from 7k (6.8 according to the rank graph) to 8k (7.7 according to the graph) due to two very ugly games I played, one after the other. Since then I have not played a ranked game, only two free games for the ASR league.

The fallacy here is more or less the fact that I have played enough games to stabilise. It's simply not true. I played a few games until "cling", I lost a game and then KGS decided to give me a set rank. I don't know how KGS estimates a rank or how big a confidence interval it uses. When I say I'm probably more like 6.5k, I'm taking into account more things than my current KGS rank, not just pretending to be a stone stronger.

Also getting a stone stronger (at least before shodan I assume) is quite easier than running the last quarter of a marathon (even if I've had no opportunity to test the latter).

jts, speedchase, I also have your tolerance problem

Fortunately, however i am tolerant. Hence my kindness in replying

First, that is your percieved rating, your KGS RANK is still what it is regardless.

Okay so you assume you are getting better. Thats great, ignorance can do wonders i hear. You still are not grasping this.

Lean in a little closer i am going to share with you the magical mystery of how KGS's ranking system works, you will find its quite similar to the rest of the rated go servers. Alright, so you win games you get a better rank, you lose games and your rank decreases. Its not really that much of a magical mystery afterall is it.

When you use words like "probably" into the mix it just means that you are making more assumptions, which once again takes us back to my point ...Of which i have made countless times by now.

To top it off you close with another assumption about a comparison judgement when you have no experience of doing the compared task... according to yourself that is. Are you connecting the dots yet?

Let's stick to basics:

1) If you're playing regularly, there's almost no reason to suspect that your KGS rank is inaccurate.
2) If you think your actual rank is not your KGS rank, there is almost never a reason to say so. You should probably not even think it--put the thought out of your mind. It's a waste of time.
3) It is obviously possible that your KGS rank does not match your actual strength. It may not even match your rank as evidenced by tournament play or face-to-face play. And if your strength changes while you do not play, KGS is obviously incapable of reflecting that.

Continuing: a rank is a statistical thing. If you play like a 2k 90% of the time, and then get in a foul mood and lose 15 games in a row, you're not a 2k. Your rank is not what you're capable of playing like. It's what you have played like, on average. That's almost always lower than what you could play like at peak form. But everyone else could also play better at their peak form. If everyone was 1 or 2 stones stronger than their current rank you'd just end up renormalizing and everyone would end up back where they started.

It's fine to say that someone's KGS rank is always what it is, but this is a tautology that contains no useful information. A more powerful statement like "your KGS rank is a good indicator of your actual strength" is more interesting and may even be generally correct but I suspect the exceptions are legion.

Book reviews of 38 Joseki from Kisedo says that the josekis are sometimes outdated. Is it still useful if I study the book now?

If you have it, or can borrow it, it probably would not hurt to read it quickly. Don't study it, though.

cttsui wrote:Book reviews of 38 Joseki from Kisedo says that the josekis are sometimes outdated. Is it still useful if I study the book now?

38 Basic Joseki offers a representative selection useful if you invest 4 hours per joseki. It is a possible start for joseki learning, but nowadays there are also softer starts, i.e., such helping their readers more. So tell me how you want to start learning joseki and I tell you whether 38 is your best choice.

RobertJasiek wrote:

cttsui wrote:Book reviews of 38 Joseki from Kisedo says that the josekis are sometimes outdated. Is it still useful if I study the book now?

38 Basic Joseki offers a representative selection useful if you invest 4 hours per joseki. It is a possible start for joseki learning, but nowadays there are also softer starts, i.e., such helping their readers more. So tell me how you want to start learning joseki and I tell you whether 38 is your best choice.

I am new to Go, and I don't know the right way to study. It seems as though one has to just sit down and memorize many josekis and its variations. However, I would like to understand each joseki, and be able to use it in the right situation (as well as its variations). Could you suggest a way that I can study joseki properly?

cttsui wrote:I am new to Go, and I don't know the right way to study. It seems as though one has to just sit down and memorize many josekis and its variations.

If you're new to go, you don't have to sit down and memorize joseki. That is one of the last things you need to worry about. If you want to get stronger, play games, have fun, and post some games for review when you have questions.

oren wrote:

cttsui wrote:I am new to Go, and I don't know the right way to study. It seems as though one has to just sit down and memorize many josekis and its variations.

If you're new to go, you don't have to sit down and memorize joseki. That is one of the last things you need to worry about. If you want to get stronger, play games, have fun, and post some games for review when you have questions.

I'm currently 13k on IGS. Would it be beneficial for me to start studying joseki?

cttsui wrote:I am new to Go, and I don't know the right way to study. It seems as though one has to just sit down and memorize many josekis and its variations. However, I would like to understand each joseki, and be able to use it in the right situation (as well as its variations). Could you suggest a way that I can study joseki properly?

Being new to Go, you should study only a few basic josekis. Wishing to understand each joseki and use it is the right positional context is a very nice objective but is more than you can achieve already at your level. All its variations is too much; you can be happy already if you know a few major variations.

I suggest that you read these books:
- First Fundamentals. It gives a very few joseki hints: those absolutely needed as a beginner. More importantly, it teaches good shape moves and other principles useful also for josekis and for every more important topic for a beginner.
- Joseki 1 Fundamentals. It teaches available move types and reasons for playing first corner stones, enclosures, approach moves, pincers and extensions. This is the most basic knowledge for an understanding of josekis and their decision making in the positional context.
- If you will already have read these books and feel you need more, the next useful advice for understanding of the positional context is chapter 2 of Joseki 3 Dictionary. The rest of the book is too advanced for you (too many, too difficult variations in the dictionary chapter), but you might at least have a first look on the various existing strategic choices. (Other related books are also too advanced for you.)
- Not for joseki but useful for your level: Graded Go Problems 1 + 2.

There are other, alternative ways of studying josekis but they do not as easily provide understanding and positional context at your level. E.g., review your own games and try to find out everything by yourself. E.g. try the same by reading 38 Basic Joseki. E.g., read other books, which teach only partial understanding (e.g., Whole Board Thinking in Joseki is selective, is not clear about general principles, neglects the middle game positional context and is too difficult for your level; the joseki chapter of Fundamental Principles of Go teaches only a small selection of principles found in Joseki 1 Fundamentals; Opening Theory Made Easy is more about the opening and - in comparison to First Fundamentals' opening-like principles - too advanced for your level).

Whichever books you study, do not forget to play enough games and apply your new knowledge!:)

cttsui wrote:I'm currently 13k on IGS. Would it be beneficial for me to start studying joseki?

I don't think so. You'll get more benefit from playing or tsumego over joseki studying. One useful site you can find is http://www.dailyjoseki.com for looking at corner sequences after a game. It gives a range of moves pros play and can be interesting.

oren wrote:You'll get more benefit from playing or tsumego over joseki studying.

There is no such conflict of benefit. Both studying reading and the basics of joseki (such as recognising valuable shape points) are important already for DDKs.

RobertJasiek wrote:
There is no such conflict of benefit. Both studying reading and the basics of joseki (such as recognising valuable shape points) are important already for DDKs.

I'm just pointing out I think studying joseki is less efficient. I understand you want to sell books, but I just disagree on when people need to study joseki.

oren wrote:studying joseki is less efficient.

Studying joseki basics is MORE efficient because some of the basics a beginners needs to know for josekis are much easier than reading and are similarly useful. In particular, knowing the available good moves types is very efficient. Playing versus not playing a valuable shape point is typically worth about 20 points. Reading correctly can (but need not) be similarly valuable, but the effort to achieve it is much greater. Valuable shape points can be detected visually. Reading requires real effort. So for the sake of improving quickly, learning good move types is much more efficient: with much less effort, improvement is possible.

I just disagree on when people need to study joseki.

Just to be sure: for beginners, with "studying joseki" I do not mean "learning many variations by heart". A beginner must, however, know those few basic josekis (among them, quite a few 6 or 8 move josekis and the standard 4-4 joseki) occurring frequently.