For weaker players reading Magicwand's comments to learn from him, this B is *not* an option. I have no idea at all why he thought Violence would play it. I read that and almost fell out of my chair. The only reason you would ever play this move is if there was some threat on the right side and you needed to defend a weak group there. *Never* in the opening.
After I recovered I said "well, maybe he knows something I don't" and checked my database of games (gathered piecemeal here and there, but it's fairly extensive nonetheless.)
I turned it up in 6 amateur games (5 were strong amateur -- 6d+ games, one was myself as a 5k versus another 5k on KGS) and only 3 pro games.
The only one of those games where it occurred as an opening move was the 5k vs. 5k game (embarrassingly though, I was the one who played it - and I did lose that game.)
Every other time it was because the game had progressed well beyond the early opening anyway, and players were deviating from joseki to shore up weaknesses in existing groups. As far as I can see, there are no redeeming values to it whatsoever as a move with an open board to the right, and as far as my database says, stronger players tend to agree with me.
Going over the moves in order: A: classic - shrinks black's corner, easy to make territory on the right, black is easy to make influence on the bottom. Downside in this case, black's hoshi in the upper right means the territory on the right side might not come to much. B: awful move - no pressure on black's corner, black is easy to make influence on the bottom, black is easy to squeeze white on the right. C: thick move - prevents black from making a moyo on the bottom or in the center. Black may catch one stone later to get a large corner. D: recent variation - less pressure on black's corner, but still some. Black may still make influence over the bottom, but maybe a little less than with A. Easy to find eyespace, so difficult to attack from the right immediately.
Magicwand, when the game is over I really want to know why you thought white would play B.
What is the date range of your database? Joseki do become obsolete, but fashions also come and go.
However, I think that it is questionable here, because of . starts a fight.
As for the hanging connection, it also appears as joseki in Suzuki-Kitani, so I doubt if it is a recent variation.
The date range is pretty large (ancient China to yesterday), but breadth != depth. Kombilo says I've got 72270 games.
I'm less interested in what a joseki dictionary says (although I understand Suzuki-Kitani is better than Ishida) and more interested in what pros found acceptable for their own games (at least, more than once.) Did anybody ever use this pattern?
Didn't do a search for the hanging connection, I just assumed it was recent from what magicwand said about it. Crazy and complicated usually means modern. I don't remember seeing it used in a game without a pincer first, but let me do a search now...
Earliest result is Go Seigen 4p vs. Honinbo Shusai, but that was a special case in the late middle game.
In fact, similar to the solid connection, I never see it played by (known) pros in the opening. I see it played by an 8d on Tygem with an open side, but it's qualified by the fight going on on the bottom part of the board, so probably still a special case. I also see it played in the opening by kghin in 2009 (he lost that game.)
Re: 56. Violence(?d) vs Magicwand(3d)
Posted: Fri Jun 25, 2010 7:21 am
by Chew Terr
For everyone:
With regards to the corner joseki in the bottom right, I was curious about it, as I'd already expressed. As a result, I used it in a 2-stone game at the club last night as black, to learn more about how it works in practice. It seemed to work fairly well (I got a reasonable corner and managed to pincer white's group into a dragon that eventually became 20+ running stones). However, my question is this: in what full-board situations is this joseki recommended? Obviously anyone can start it in most games, but I was curious when it would be advisable (or particularly inadvisable).
Re: 56. Violence(?d) vs Magicwand(3d)
Posted: Fri Jun 25, 2010 7:24 am
by crux
ethanb wrote:
I'm less interested in what a joseki dictionary says (although I understand Suzuki-Kitani is better than Ishida) and more interested in what pros found acceptable for their own games (at least, more than once.) Did anybody ever use this pattern?
In GoGoD there are practically no examples of this when White doesn't already have an extension along the side.
Re: 56. Violence(?d) vs Magicwand(3d)
Posted: Fri Jun 25, 2010 7:27 am
by Bill Spight
ethanb wrote:
The date range is pretty large (ancient China to yesterday), but breadth != depth. Kombilo says I've got 72270 games.
I'm less interested in what a joseki dictionary says (although I understand Suzuki-Kitani is better than Ishida) and more interested in what pros found acceptable for their own games (at least, more than once.) Did anybody ever use this pattern?
Didn't do a search for the hanging connection, I just assumed it was recent from what magicwand said about it. Crazy and complicated usually means modern. I don't remember seeing it used in a game without a pincer first, but let me do a search now...
Earliest result is Go Seigen 4p vs. Honinbo Shusai, but that was a special case in the late middle game.
In fact, similar to the solid connection, I never see it played by (known) pros in the opening. I see it played by an 8d on Tygem with an open side, but it's qualified by the fight going on on the bottom part of the board, so probably still a special case. I also see it played in the opening by kghin in 2009 (he lost that game.)
My impression is that Suzuki-Kitani is reliable about classifying something as joseki, because they distinguish among joseki, ancient (obsolete) joseki, common patterns, fights, and equal exchanges (not to mention situational sequences). If a sequence were not accepted as standard, I doubt if they would call it joseki.
Crazy and complicated usually means modern.
Or ancient.
Re: 56. Violence(?d) vs Magicwand(3d)
Posted: Fri Jun 25, 2010 7:37 am
by Magicwand
Chew Terr wrote:For everyone:
With regards to the corner joseki in the bottom right, I was curious about it, as I'd already expressed. As a result, I used it in a 2-stone game at the club last night as black, to learn more about how it works in practice. It seemed to work fairly well (I got a reasonable corner and managed to pincer white's group into a dragon that eventually became 20+ running stones). However, my question is this: in what full-board situations is this joseki recommended? Obviously anyone can start it in most games, but I was curious when it would be advisable (or particularly inadvisable).
i was thinking i am also everyone...so i opened the hide tag. when i first started to learn i had to memorized every variation of attaching on white joseky. we call it handycap joseky because it is very effective when you are playing against someone stronger with handycap. by attaching you will make your opponent heavy so there are less variations white can make. i was told to memorize all the variations and it was effective when i played handycap games. if you protect the corner as i did with empty triangle it is pretty intimidating territory. you may try lee chang ho vs cho hunhyun during their prime. lee chang ho only played this joseky against him and beat him. to answer your question completely... it will be helpful if you want your game to be simple with less variation. if you play white then i guess you will need more variation so..not advisable.
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: W=0, B=0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . X . . O . X . X O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . B . X O X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X X . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . O . O O . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . X . . O X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . X . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
i already though about that push... i guess he had to choose lesser of other evils
Re: 56. Violence(?d) vs Magicwand(3d)
Posted: Fri Jun 25, 2010 4:11 pm
by Joaz Banbeck
@Violence:
I hate to say this, but Magicwand is making longer comments than you are.
Anyway...your last comment did not explain much about why you played your last move. How did you come to that decision? It looks like both aji keshi and pushing from behind. And what are you going to do with that threatened stone?
@Magicwand:
Was that a typo? How are you going to handle P16?
Re: 56. Violence(?d) vs Magicwand(3d)
Posted: Fri Jun 25, 2010 4:16 pm
by Violence
$$Bcm1 Prisoners: W=0, B=0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . X . . O . X . X O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X W X O X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X X . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . O . O O . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . X . . O X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . X . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: W=0, B=0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . X . . O . X . X O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X W X O X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X X . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . O . O O . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . X . . O X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . X . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Joaz:
I'm playing this direction because I honestly don't care very much about that stone. I think it's too small for black to want to capture on this scale, so I'm sacrificing it because I think the center influence can be a bother if I try to run it out.
Last time I made too many weak groups, and Magicwand punished me. I will proceed steadily from here instead. I have too many problems to invite more.
And no, it's not aji keshi. It makes aji.
This box is empty just to play with Magicwand's head.
No, joking.
I thought about this already, and ataring this one stone can damage the shape around here.
In short, my plan is to make black eat one stone, only to find that it is not delicious.
Re: 56. Violence(?d) vs Magicwand(3d)
Posted: Fri Jun 25, 2010 4:19 pm
by Magicwand
@Magicwand:
Was that a typo? How are you going to handle P16?
P16 is bad move.. One stone punoki is an ajikeshi. only make me stronger. i am curious how he will handel that one stone now..i think i can play stronger move now..since he played bad move.
$$Wcm1 Prisoners: W=0, B=0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . X . . O . X 2 X O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . 4 . 1 X X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . B 3 X O X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X X . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . O . O O . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . X . . O X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . X . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
. 
starts a fight.
Kombilo says I've got 72270 games.